Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Why Israeli Carry Is A Bad Idea: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=528314&highlight=israeli+carry
CC empty vs live chamber
- Thread starter Runs With Fire
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Myself, if im fending off a violent assault and the assaliant doesnt have a gun, attempting to draw and fire isnt going to be in my top 3 reactions even with one in the chamber. For instance if someone starts waving a knife or bat in your direction you are going to try and shoot them before they do you serious harm? Im going to run or go hand to hand, either way a better bet for me.
But whatever the case the idea that you gotta be ready to fire at a moments notice or not at all i think is awfully closed minded. It does not hurt to have a concealed weapon if it doesnt come out, you are not any worse off and in many situations you will have time.
But whatever the case the idea that you gotta be ready to fire at a moments notice or not at all i think is awfully closed minded. It does not hurt to have a concealed weapon if it doesnt come out, you are not any worse off and in many situations you will have time.
OldMarksman
Staff
Why?
If they are close enough to pose a serious, imminent threat, absolutely!
Have you ever participated in exercises of the kind demonstrated by Dennis Tueller? An average assailant starting his attack with a contact weapon from a distance of around twenty feet can close that distance in the time it takes for a trained defender to draw and fire a handgun without racking a slide.
What on earth does that mean?
If you say so.
You really, really need to avail yourself of some quality defensive training before you start carrying a firearm.
2wheelwander
New member
Previous military/LE. I'm no expert by any measure, but I've got a clue. IMHO this is exactly why striker fired handguns took off. Actually safer than revolvers were at the time they were introduced (or that was the perception), yet it solved the 'cocked and locked' debate. Pull and fire. Triple safety design with the simplicity of a revolver. As much as I like 1911's, I'd never carry one as a personal protection. Not because the design is unsafe, but because I've never developed muscle memory to trust my life to it. Well that, and the weight.
If you aren't confident enough with your ability to safely carry a sidearm with one in the pipe, you probably shouldn't be carrying a loaded gun in the first place.
If you aren't confident enough with your ability to safely carry a sidearm with one in the pipe, you probably shouldn't be carrying a loaded gun in the first place.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
adamBomb said:
So, you won’t get killed if someone grabs your gun from behind and there is no round in the chamber? That is only going to save the life of someone who can use that tiny bit of time to regain control of a gun that they couldn’t stop the person from taking. So, I don’t think that is a valid solution to a gun grab.
Black Wolf
New member
While I am NOT an advocate of carrying with an empty chamber, the scenario he described HAS happened to someone I knew and the "click" DID buy him time to save his life. It is not a big enough "plus" (imho) to outweigh the "minuses" but I won't argue that it is not a plus because I know it is. Everyone here is saying how fast a situation unfolds and that is why every split second counts (don't waste time racking the slide). Using that logic makes it hard to argue that the split second you save by causing a rythm break, in a gun grab, is any less valuable.
The only time I carry with an empty chamber is if I have been doing (and plan on doing more) dry practice. Otherwise, mine is set to go.
On a lighter note - having one in the pipe makes it impossible to pull your gun, rack the slide, and make some tough guy cliche remark. Jk
TheDevilThatYouKnow
New member
Even if carrying on an empty chamber incurred no extra time penalty I don't think I could endorse it. The possibility of things that might interfere with it troubles me.
Can I be sure that my off-hand will always be available?
... will never be occupied trying to fend off an attacker?
... will never be in the death-grip of my wife, girlfriend, or heaven forbid...both???
... will never be holding my youngest in my arms?
... will never be trying to control my dog on his leash?
... will never be trying to maintain my grip on a bus careening out of control at 55mph and will blow up if it goes below that speed?
... will never have an injured hand or arm that prevents me from racking the slide?
Compared to that, what are the disadvantages to carrying with a round already chambered?
Can I be sure that my off-hand will always be available?
... will never be occupied trying to fend off an attacker?
... will never be in the death-grip of my wife, girlfriend, or heaven forbid...both???
... will never be holding my youngest in my arms?
... will never be trying to control my dog on his leash?
... will never be trying to maintain my grip on a bus careening out of control at 55mph and will blow up if it goes below that speed?
... will never have an injured hand or arm that prevents me from racking the slide?
Compared to that, what are the disadvantages to carrying with a round already chambered?
Runs With Fire
New member
That's enough for me. I made up my mind.
I'm going to add the non-tactical argument to this because I considered it way too much last night as an academic point as the OP has already made a decision. Apparently I don't like to sleep anyways.
I had to click on the little firearms safety link up top because I wanted to verify I did not word this incorrectly. The first rule of gun safety:
All guns are always loaded - period!
It seems the arguments for carrying with an empty chamber revolve around the idea that a gun, particularly a carry gun that is handled fairly often, is in fact not loaded. To me such an idea, firmly placed in one's mind, could easily be the starting point for a disaster.
I had to click on the little firearms safety link up top because I wanted to verify I did not word this incorrectly. The first rule of gun safety:
All guns are always loaded - period!
It seems the arguments for carrying with an empty chamber revolve around the idea that a gun, particularly a carry gun that is handled fairly often, is in fact not loaded. To me such an idea, firmly placed in one's mind, could easily be the starting point for a disaster.
Saurdaukar
New member
"All guns are always loaded - period! It seems the arguments for carrying with an empty chamber revolve around the idea that a gun, particularly a carry gun that is handled fairly often, is in fact not loaded. To me such an idea, firmly placed in one's mind, could easily be the starting point for a disaster."
Valid, but the thought process goes both ways.
From a safety perspective, treating every firearm as if it were loaded is very good practice, of course, for all the usual reasons.
However, moving beyond basic safety measures and into practical use, I absolutely want to know exactly what the condition of my weapon is. The consequences for not knowing can be equally detrimental, loaded or unloaded.
Valid, but the thought process goes both ways.
From a safety perspective, treating every firearm as if it were loaded is very good practice, of course, for all the usual reasons.
However, moving beyond basic safety measures and into practical use, I absolutely want to know exactly what the condition of my weapon is. The consequences for not knowing can be equally detrimental, loaded or unloaded.
The reason Israeli carry was instigated, in the first place. When the Country of Israel was first given to the Jews by England (who did not own it in the first place? They did that a lot!) as they started to obtain handguns, they were in every size and shape, a big Hodgepodge of calibres, and mecanisms.
So the safest way to carry, full magazine, empty chamber, no worries on making it ready to fire quickly and safely.
I rented a range to El Al and Consulate Officers in Toronto, for 16 years. Ending in 2003.
When they went to Glocks in 9mm, this practice stopped.
Could they have used Police Ranges for free? Of course, but having a group of Police Officers watching them run their training? Not happening.
One exercise (I have not been involved with them since 2003) so all this must have long since been changed.
Draw and fire 3 rounds at a cardboard silhouette, at 15 yards, run quickly down range, fire a round into a 4" balloon, taped underneath the target.
Bursting the balloon.
Not a group to mess with.
So the safest way to carry, full magazine, empty chamber, no worries on making it ready to fire quickly and safely.
I rented a range to El Al and Consulate Officers in Toronto, for 16 years. Ending in 2003.
When they went to Glocks in 9mm, this practice stopped.
Could they have used Police Ranges for free? Of course, but having a group of Police Officers watching them run their training? Not happening.
One exercise (I have not been involved with them since 2003) so all this must have long since been changed.
Draw and fire 3 rounds at a cardboard silhouette, at 15 yards, run quickly down range, fire a round into a 4" balloon, taped underneath the target.
Bursting the balloon.
Not a group to mess with.
I don't know of any LE agency that carries with an empty chamber, but the military does more often than not. Regional differences between hunters determine mean different customs. Many do many don't There are very few professional guides that will allow a hunter to hunt with a loaded chamber until the guide tells you to chamber a round.
For personal protection it depends. Most of the time I agree there should be one in the chamber if the gun is carried in a holster that covers the trigger. But there are exceptions when an unloaded chamber is better. There are times when a gun is stored or carried with no holster and I would prefer no round in the chamber then. In fact if the gun is not strapped onto my body it takes 2 hands to remove it from a holster anyway. It would be faster to get it into action if left out of the holster without a chambered round than in a holster with a round chambered.
And it would be extremely rare for the extra 1/2 second to really matter.
FireForged
New member
In my opinion, carrying a firearm without a round in the chamber is nothing but amaturistic protectionist nonsense. If you want to carry on empty.. I wont try to talk you out of it but please get some training.
yes and no. I would not say "more often than not." The military carries condition 4 (no rounds anywhere) more often than not. But if you're issued rounds, a great deal of the time you carry with 1 in the chamber. I believe you were supposed to stay condition 3 on large bases like Camp Fallujah last time I was in Iraq, but any time you were on guard duty or stepped foot outside the wire you had a round chambered. If you go through a gate on any military base right now, there will be armed Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen/Marines there. They will be armed, and they will have a round in their chamber.
Further, the carry on an empty chamber mantra of the military has much more to do with handing 19 year olds fully automatic weapons than it does with the actual safety level of competent people carrying with a round in the chamber. I always though it was stupid honestly. We had to hit a clearing barrel several times a day in country if we were on Camp Fallujah... the chow hall, the barber shop, and a couple of other places as I recall. Their stupid policy of requiring Joes and Lance Criminals to manipulate the weapon to clear it when they kept live rounds on their person daily was probably more dangerous than just keeping weapons condition 1 all the time.
I do agree with this. Absolutely no round in the chamber if the pistol is not holstered on the person in a holster covering the triggerguard.
Further, I'm not a fan of carrying any other way. I will not denigrate it, but purse or bag carry is not in my personal comfort zone.
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armednfree
New member
Your off hand can be doing a lot more important things than racking a slide.
Have you ever participated in exercises of the kind demonstrated by Dennis Tueller? An average assailant starting his attack with a contact weapon from a distance of around twenty feet can close that distance in the time it takes for a trained defender to draw and fire a handgun without racking a slide.
i have and twice my son hit me before i cleared leather. in this case i knew he was coming. perp situation you mite not. i know a few people better than i am and most of them ended in a draw. please no comment on paragraphing
i have and twice my son hit me before i cleared leather. in this case i knew he was coming. perp situation you mite not. i know a few people better than i am and most of them ended in a draw. please no comment on paragraphing
Spats McGee
Administrator
I carry with one in the chamber. If I'm under violent attack, I may need my non-shooting hand for something other than chambering a round.
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