case length question
- Thread starter mendozer
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Mendozer
Sized case is 2.043 and you feel resistance when chambering.
Fired case is 2.040 and you can chamber fired case with a slight resistance.
If that's correct , I would size to 2.039-8 test in your rifles chamber & see how they feel.
As F.Guffey stated , when you sized your fired cases , the die squeezed them longer. Sizing them a little longer then your chamber. .001-.002 for accuracy, .003 for hunting.
Sized case is 2.043 and you feel resistance when chambering.
Fired case is 2.040 and you can chamber fired case with a slight resistance.
If that's correct , I would size to 2.039-8 test in your rifles chamber & see how they feel.
As F.Guffey stated , when you sized your fired cases , the die squeezed them longer. Sizing them a little longer then your chamber. .001-.002 for accuracy, .003 for hunting.
K I misread my caliper. Fired was 2.047, unfired but resized was 2.050.
I screwed the die down a tiny bit and was able to resize PPU and federal brass down to 2.048, a S&B went down to 46 for some reason. It chambers with very little resistance. The fired one chambers with basically none.
So....I can't really screw the die in more without making it very hard to cam over. Shall I call this good since it chambers fine?
I screwed the die down a tiny bit and was able to resize PPU and federal brass down to 2.048, a S&B went down to 46 for some reason. It chambers with very little resistance. The fired one chambers with basically none.
So....I can't really screw the die in more without making it very hard to cam over. Shall I call this good since it chambers fine?
Again, you do not know if the die made it to the shell holder. There is another term outside of reloading called 'leaver lock', the term has been around for many years. A wild guestimate would be the 'leaver lock; has been with us for over 80+ years. Users have the perception they are caming over when the are actually 'leaver locking'.
I have Rock Chucker presses, none of my Rock Chuckers cam over, My rock Chuckers go into a bind, the top is pushed away from the bottom and the linkage locks up and then the ram is pushed forward and the bottom is pushed to the rear at the bottom but that is OK with me; because I know the case aligns the ram with the die. Without the case
If you decide to increases the presse's ability to overcome the cases resistance to sizing place a feeler gage between the case head and deck of the shell holder. I form short cases for short chambers using this technique. If I ever decide to grind the base of a die or lower the deck height of a shell holder I would use the feeler gage to determine how much to grinding would be necessary. And then if I did decide to grind the bottom of the die or top of the shell holder I could use a feeler gage to correct the die by adjusting the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage. I could use a metal stamp to indicate stock removal.
And then there is that part about the primer punch poking holes in the feeler gage; I have punches that stamp round holes, and then it is possible to remove the primer punch.
F. Guffey
mendozer
So at this point , fired and sized cases are chambering fine. Back your die out , are you using a F/L sizing die ? If so , just size the neck . When the brass starts to stretch and chambers with resistance , then you will be able to bump the shoulder. You don't want to over size your brass. After sizing are you measuring your brass for trim to length ?
So at this point , fired and sized cases are chambering fine. Back your die out , are you using a F/L sizing die ? If so , just size the neck . When the brass starts to stretch and chambers with resistance , then you will be able to bump the shoulder. You don't want to over size your brass. After sizing are you measuring your brass for trim to length ?
last batch yes I trimmed to length. I haven't done another yet until I figure out his base to datum issue.
I'm a little confused about what Guffey's staying about the cam not going over. I was under the impression you raise the arm till it touches the die base with good fit (like it blocks light from behind) and that's the level at which you put the lock ring on. Another method, which helped me get the cases a bit shorter of a shoulder was to screw it down until the arm dropped freely and the resistance from hitting the die prevented it from camming over.
this from Chuck Hawks
"Here is how to adjust the resizing die to full length resize cases. First, run the ram to the top of the reloading press stroke with the proper shell holder installed. Second, screw the resizing die into the press until it stops against the elevated shell holder. Third, all play must be removed from the system. To do this, lower the ram and turn the die 1/8 to 1/4 turn farther into the press. Check the adjustment by returning the shell holder to the top of its stroke--you should feel the press cam over center. Now set the large lock ring and your die is adjusted to properly full length resize cases.
The first two steps of the die adjustment procedure for neck sizing are identical, but the third step is to back the die slightly out of the press. You must check the adjustment for neck sizing by running a fired case into the press. You should be able to see how far down the neck of the case is being resized. The die is properly adjusted for neck sizing when the neck has been resized but the shoulder is not set back. Then tighten the large lock ring."
I'm a little confused about what Guffey's staying about the cam not going over. I was under the impression you raise the arm till it touches the die base with good fit (like it blocks light from behind) and that's the level at which you put the lock ring on. Another method, which helped me get the cases a bit shorter of a shoulder was to screw it down until the arm dropped freely and the resistance from hitting the die prevented it from camming over.
this from Chuck Hawks
"Here is how to adjust the resizing die to full length resize cases. First, run the ram to the top of the reloading press stroke with the proper shell holder installed. Second, screw the resizing die into the press until it stops against the elevated shell holder. Third, all play must be removed from the system. To do this, lower the ram and turn the die 1/8 to 1/4 turn farther into the press. Check the adjustment by returning the shell holder to the top of its stroke--you should feel the press cam over center. Now set the large lock ring and your die is adjusted to properly full length resize cases.
The first two steps of the die adjustment procedure for neck sizing are identical, but the third step is to back the die slightly out of the press. You must check the adjustment for neck sizing by running a fired case into the press. You should be able to see how far down the neck of the case is being resized. The die is properly adjusted for neck sizing when the neck has been resized but the shoulder is not set back. Then tighten the large lock ring."
What he is saying is if your press cams over it is a bump press. A bump press bumps twice at the top of the stroke' meaning the shell holder on top of the ram hits the die on the way up and then the ram changes directions and stops. When the ram is lowered on a cam over/bump type press the ram must travel up first and then lower. The pump/cam over press bumps twice, once on the way up and again on the way down. I have at least 10 cam over presses and then there are the presses that do not cam over.
Directions: I have directions for press operations. I have one set for cam over presses; I have another set for non cam over presses. Both sets of instructions for directions came from RCBS. At the time RCBS made the A2, the A2 is a cam over press, they also made the Rock chucker, the Rock Chucker is not a cam over press. If we had someone with investigative skills and were fair and objective I believe they could trace reloading back 60+ years and sort reloading slang.
A good place to start would be with 'bump the shoulder'. there is no way to bump the shoulder without bumping everything like the neck, case body and shoulder. There was a manufacturer that claimed to make body dies and they claimed they made bump dies, I considered the possibility I could be wrong so I called them and we decided there was no way to bump the shoulder without bumping everything because to do "SOMETHING" with the shoulder the die must furnish case body support.
F. Guffey
And then there is the illusion; reloaders believe they are moving the shoulder back when they size the case. I shorten the distance from the shoulder to the head of the case when I size a bottle neck case. I find it impossible to shove the shoulder back. I can move the shoulder back without case body support but when I do that I turn the case body in to something that looks like an accordion or bellows.
mendozer
Let's keep it simple. If your fired cases can chamber in your rifles chamber. Pop the primer without sizing .Take that measurement . set up your sizing die as instructions. Bring the ram to the top , screw the die down to hit the shell holder , screw the die down slightly to remove any slack in the die threads. Now you can feel the ram bottom out when it hits the shell holder. With a cleaned case , lube & F/L size , check that measurement to the first fired case measurement . What are the measurements & test in your chamber , let me know. Chris
Let's keep it simple. If your fired cases can chamber in your rifles chamber. Pop the primer without sizing .Take that measurement . set up your sizing die as instructions. Bring the ram to the top , screw the die down to hit the shell holder , screw the die down slightly to remove any slack in the die threads. Now you can feel the ram bottom out when it hits the shell holder. With a cleaned case , lube & F/L size , check that measurement to the first fired case measurement . What are the measurements & test in your chamber , let me know. Chris
Dufus
Yes , the measurement can be taken , but it's more accurate without the primer , due to the primer could have a rim around the firing pin hole or the primer could have backed out from the pocket when there is to much case headspace.
mendozer
You don't want to can over your press if your fired brass is shorter then your chamber . Maybe I misread your answer.
Yes , the measurement can be taken , but it's more accurate without the primer , due to the primer could have a rim around the firing pin hole or the primer could have backed out from the pocket when there is to much case headspace.
mendozer
You don't want to can over your press if your fired brass is shorter then your chamber . Maybe I misread your answer.
I hear that a lot and I am the fan of a reloader knowing their press. When someone tells me their press cams over I always ask: "How Much?" As in how much cam over does your press have. I am told my Rock Chucker presses cam over and I always ask: "How can that be?" Because one of my Rock Chucker presses is attached to a Piggy Back 11 attachment. I know, that means nothing to a reloader but my Piggy Back 11 has a one way clutch; and now back to the cam over press, if my Rock Chucker was a cam over it would lock up if the ram reversed directions 'BECAUSE!' my Piggy Back 11 has a one way clutch (meaning) the shaft can only go one direction. Auto transmissions have one way clutches, there was a time when dropping the selecter into drive before coming to a complete stop when backing up was a bad habit and then there were servos that operated bands.
F. Guffey
I will add my two bits in.
My brother game me an FCBS case trimmer as he got a Gerard shoulder trimmer.
You would think it would clutch in and the same setting would trim them all the same CL. Nope, all over the place (relatively speaking) with the SAME brass. Pull out, check back in, trim, pull out check, back in, trim.
I then bought a Little Crow shoulder trimmer off him, loved it.
why it works I don't know, but trimming off the shoulder gets it to without a couple of thousandths of correct case length.
I then sold that and got a Gerard tri trimmer (drill operated version of his powered one). I have two now.
Why? It trims to length, chamfers the mouth inside and outside very consistently and nicely, saves steps by using another step for 3 things. Also equally as good as the Little Crow (Little Crow is great for lower quantities, I shoot a lot so the step saving helps)
Bottom line, shoulder trimmers (good ones) work and I will never look back.
Two I have used are top class, Little Crow a bit lower cost
My brother game me an FCBS case trimmer as he got a Gerard shoulder trimmer.
You would think it would clutch in and the same setting would trim them all the same CL. Nope, all over the place (relatively speaking) with the SAME brass. Pull out, check back in, trim, pull out check, back in, trim.
I then bought a Little Crow shoulder trimmer off him, loved it.
why it works I don't know, but trimming off the shoulder gets it to without a couple of thousandths of correct case length.
I then sold that and got a Gerard tri trimmer (drill operated version of his powered one). I have two now.
Why? It trims to length, chamfers the mouth inside and outside very consistently and nicely, saves steps by using another step for 3 things. Also equally as good as the Little Crow (Little Crow is great for lower quantities, I shoot a lot so the step saving helps)
Bottom line, shoulder trimmers (good ones) work and I will never look back.
Two I have used are top class, Little Crow a bit lower cost
Trimming a case neck when the case is set upon the shoulder is not trimming to length. Again, I have a chamber that is .016" longer than a minimum length case; that is .011" longer than a go gage length chamber. When trimming cases for the long chamber I have to consider the additional .014" case length when trimming. If I am setting up on the shoulder of the case it is 'not a problem'.
Then we have to go back to the Wilson case gage. when using the Wilson case gage the reloader must understand the case can protrude from the neck end of the gage and the case can protrude from the case head end of the gage. A r3eloader that understands the concept of 'datum' understands the distance from the datum/shoulder t the case head is not included in the measurement when measuring case length.
And then it is about this time everyone gets confused.
I have trim/form dies, there is no tool that trims as accurately than the trim/form die. To be accurate the reloader must know the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the case head.
F. Guffey
ok
took a PPU fired x 2, decapped it and measured 2.044, 42, 42 with the gauge.
I took the press lever to the very bottom (past what I consider the cam, albeit such a small drop from the cam regarding the ram lowering) screwed it to some resistance, then a tiny bit more, locked it in place then ran the case through. It was a bit tough, but it came out at 2.042, 43, 43. This is one case measured 3 times.
So of course this one chambered just as fine as the fired one. I don't even have to compress the bolt to pivot it. The previous federals needed some compression for the bolt handle to pivot down. This just slides in and locks down easily.
took a PPU fired x 2, decapped it and measured 2.044, 42, 42 with the gauge.
I took the press lever to the very bottom (past what I consider the cam, albeit such a small drop from the cam regarding the ram lowering) screwed it to some resistance, then a tiny bit more, locked it in place then ran the case through. It was a bit tough, but it came out at 2.042, 43, 43. This is one case measured 3 times.
So of course this one chambered just as fine as the fired one. I don't even have to compress the bolt to pivot it. The previous federals needed some compression for the bolt handle to pivot down. This just slides in and locks down easily.