Case for DA/SA…

My first duty pistol was a S&W 5906, which for those who don’t know is a stainless steel DA/SA 9mm. That and other similar S&W DA/SA pistols were passed around at the start of our academy for us to choose from so we could order them from GT Distributors.

Within the next couple of years, a new academy class started, and they all had to go S&W DAO due to the movement at the time. I absolutely hated DAO! Also, I was a gun guy, and to me, a DAO was only for those who weren’t.

Somewhere close to that time, our firearms instructor was talking good about the crazy-angled and blockish pistols from a foreign land where the magazine wouldn’t fall freely when released due to the designer not wanting the magazine to fall into the snow of this foreign land. Also, those pistols were plastic, came in a Tupperware container, and had a funny name.

The downside, to me at the time, was that it wasn’t a DAO. I like quirky schtuff, so after learning more about Glocks, I wanted to carry one. My firearms instructor pushed for a policy change, and when he said it was going to happen, I ordered my first - a G17 gen 2. I qualified with it and had received a holster I ordered for it, and I was the first to carry one the day the new policy came out.

Time went by, and I went to a G19 because it fit my hand better AND for off duty carry. And just as I did with the G17, I did the same thing with a G23 when our policy changed to allow us to carry .40 SW. Yep, first to carry .40 and a G23 the day the new policy dropped.

Being a gun guy, I looked at other polymer offerings. I got an Hk USP with the stainless slide, but I got rid of that fast because of the TERRIBLE DAO trigger. I think I went to a Beretta Cougar 8040D for a while since I liked their DAO trigger, but then I went to a SIG P2000. I absolutely loved that trigger and everything about that pistol. I remember other officers trying it out, and they were amazed at just how light and smooth that ‘DAO’ trigger was.

Being a gun guy, I got a Beretta 96D, and the SIG was used for bike patrol duty and off duty carry. I eventually went back to a G23 for a while before retiring from that agency. Additionally, I carried agency issued G17 gen 4 and 5 at the agency I just retired from.

So, with a brief history of my 11 duty weapons, I just want to say that my trigger preference had changed over the years, relating to LE use after gaining street and supervisory experience. With the loss of fine finger movements under stress due to the tachypsychia effect, which I even experienced in intense training, I became a convert to a non-DA/SA trigger. I was pushed begrudgingly to them at first, but time and experience won out.

If I was an agency head, my policy wouldn’t allow my officers to carry a DA/SA on or off duty. I couldn’t imagine me ever stating this years before, but with ever-increasing liability, officer preference has left the building along with Elvis.
 
ftttu said:
Being a gun guy, I looked at other polymer offerings. I got an Hk USP with the stainless slide, but I got rid of that fast because of the TERRIBLE DAO trigger. I think I went to a Beretta Cougar 8040D for a while since I liked their DAO trigger, but then I went to a SIG P2000. I absolutely loved that trigger and everything about that pistol. I remember other officers trying it out, and they were amazed at just how light and smooth that ‘DAO’ trigger was.
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There’s an HK P2000 and a SIG SP2022, but not a SIG P2000 that I know of.
 
TunnelRat said:
There’s an HK P2000 and a SIG SP2022, but not a SIG P2000 that I know of.
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There was the SigPro SP2009 that was the first of the plastic Sigs.

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Would love to find another one.
 

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jar said:
There was the SigPro SP2009 that was the first of the plastic Sigs.

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Would love to find another one.
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True, but given the description I think he’s describing HK’s LEM more than SIG’s DAK. Maybe he’ll come back and let us know.
 
jar said:
The SP2009 was DA/SA but with a fantastic trigger in DA mode.
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Except he specifically mentioned DAO, which would be DAK for SIG. I’m not sure if SIG did a DAK 2009/2022. If not then it’s even more likely it was the HK P2000.
 
TunnelRat said:
There’s an HK P2000 and a SIG SP2022, but not a SIG P2000 that I know of.
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TunnelRat, thanks for catching that, I should have proofread before posting.

Also, after retiring first time, I sold my G23 and went 9mm due to thinking my shaking near the end of firing a 50 round qual course had something to do with the shock of shooting a .40. It later turned out I have intention tremor, but with the claimed advancements in 9mm technology, I didn’t fret it.

So, right at retirement, I could have gone with any pistol my wife would allow, and I still went with a DAO type of trigger. For main carry, I went with an (SIG) Hk VP9 and a TP9SA for my truck gun - both known to have good trigger.

Lastly, I wasn’t against DA/SA since I loved my 2 Browning BDA 380s, but I reasoned I couldn’t trust a light trigger with worsening tremors. They’ve leveled out, and I went back full time as a LEO after being retired 5.5 years. I’m out again as of a few days ago, and I will now stick with my P365XL during my permanent retirement.
 
How many people have been injured because they could not master the DA trigger pull vs how many have shot themselves?
We don't have the statistics but then again... I can shoot a revolver DA or SA.

If you assess it's better to be cocked and locked, you have the option. If you're crawling around in the brush on your hands and knees looking for Bambi's dad, maybe you use the decocker.

If you trained on a Beretta in the service, it seems natural to you.
 
How did I miss this discussion? I'm actually a pretty big fan of DA/SA. To whoever said they can't be shot fast... the CZ P09 was (still is in a lesser way) quite popular in the competition circuit. Do they win as many major comps as Glock? Probably not. Does CZ invest as much into sponsoring shooters and supplying them? Definitely not.

My split times with my CZ P07 are no slower than with my issued Glock G45. Of course I've shot DA/SA pistols for years. We were issued SIG P220s once upon a time. I'm actually a big fan of a good DA/SA for duty carry. That long first trigger pull helps ensure that is deliberate, amd follow on shots with a good DA/SA can be quite accurate. But the pistols are not as easy to service for sure.
 
many years ago, Mas Ayoob said that the SA semi auto was better for the solider, who generally sees the enemy and shoots them more than he holds that at gunpoint. And the DA/SA semi was a better choice for the police, who frequently hold suspects at gunpoint, where the long, heavier DA pull helped reduce accidental shootings.

I don't see how that has changed any in the years since.

Since my days as a solider are nearly 50 years in the past, and I never was, or will be a police officer, I'm pretty flexible about some things.
 
I'm just a new member here but I do have a thought. As a relatively new shooter I went and got my permit a few years ago and started looking for a carry gun. Rightly or wrongly It seemed to me that a DA/SA pistol was a little safer to carry. I think with the large number of new shooters joining your ranks a lot of them are hesitant to even carry a pistol and feel safer with the DA first shot. I now carry a sig 938 cocked and locked but 2 years ago I would have been scared of it. Just a new shooters point of view.
 
I think there's a lot of overthinking going on with this topic. Kind of splitting hairs on a few things.

Striker-fired is good and has a place. Hammer-fired is good and has a place. Choose what you like. I happen to like both. I go from a Glock 19 or Walther that striker-fired, to an HK USP 9 Compact or P30L that's hammer-fired. The only time I'll consider one over the other is maybe if I'm going somewhere that has a good amount of land/distance. Then I think about things like cocking the hammer versus not, or iron sights versus RDS (red-dot sight).

But for the intended purpose of self defense in mind, concealed carry, out and about in the world as a citizen... DA/SA, stirker-fired, SAO, doesn't matter. Just get some reps in before leaving the house, check your holsters, status of your weapon, and make sure you have your woobie. (lol)
 
DA/SA

When my agency transitioned from revolvers to semiauto pistols, we ended up with the SIG P series, as did a lot of other federal agencies. The belief going into the change was that we would end up with Glocks in .40. That's not the way it worked out, but the end result was I ended up with a SIG P220 in .45acp. The issue was not safety........the SIGS were an overrun to another agency and available affordably to Park Service. The selection process for a new duty sidearm was dragging out, and overhead (not sure who) supposedly said, "get a new pistol now or never". I also ended up running several transition courses for our staff from revolver to auto.

Qualification scores improved noticeably, especially for marginal shooters. Good shooters continued to shoot well, but those who struggled with bi-annual quals improved markedly. Usually this could be traced to poor hand strength when shooting a DA revolver, and usually, though I hate to admit it, with women. With the SIG weak shooters only had to struggle with on heavy DA pull, then SA and repeat shots delivered with greater accuracy. Not the best arrangement, but an improvement.

When I started shooting a bit of IDPA, prior retirement, I did so with my duty leather and the SIG P220. Inside of 5 yds, with the generous IDPA target, my first shots from Type II holster were as fast as anybody else's from concealment, I even managed to win a few stages. But as the distances opened and a good sight picture began to really matter, the longer initial DA pull of the SIG was slower. When I retired and continued to shoot IDPA for a brief while longer, I bought a G34. cheaper ammo, less recoil. But I never thought the Glock safe-action trigger was an improvement over the SIG, and in fact, missed the SIG SA pull for distance shooting.

I firmly believe the issue about transition from the DA/SA trigger can be trained around, meaning, it's not a big deal if you shoot the double/single system enough. Case in point.....after retirement, about the time that the ammo crunch really hit, I found myself out of 9mm ammo, but had an ample supply of .45acp about, so I went to the next match with my personal P220 and shot the match, from concealment,with the big SIG.. I had not shot DA/SA in several years. I figured I had spent so much time with the P220 all would go well. Wrong. Tbe DA/SA gave me fits. I had lost my edge with the system. .....proving in reverse, that DA/SA can be mastered if you work at it and stay in practice. But it's a bear if you skimp on trigger time.
 
Speaking from a completely new shooter stand point DA/SA for me makes a lot of sense. Especially as a carry option. Like you pointed out that 12-13lb first pull can be an added safety barrier. I'd personally love a gun like a CZ shadow 2 or shadow 2 compact, even as my very first gun.
 
I prefer DA/SA guns, especially in 9mm. No need for a safety. No need for a trigger dingus. First pull of the trigger is rather stout and deliberate; follow-up shots being made easier. Or, you generally have the option to carry it locked and cocked like a single-action.

Glocks are fine for Military/open carry, if you can put up with the stupid trigger dingus. I'm not Military, don't open carry and don't want to be "that guy" booger-hooking the trigger as I'm reholstering my weapon.
 
I'm not against DA/SA pistols, but I don't care for the ones that lower the hammer, requiring a DA pull, AND leave the safety ON at the same time.

Cocked and on safe, cool. Decocked and off safe, cool. uncocked with safety on? what the hell for?? Not so cool, to me.

I'm not a cop, my GI days ended 45 years ago, I don't need, nor want what duty officers need and use. Different strokes for different folks, and for me the DA/SA service pistol isn't a necessary thing.

I have SIG P220 ,45 and like it a lot but its not a necessary thing as I have other designs of pistols that fill that need just as well, if slightly differently.
 
That is great, but DA to SA has proven difficult to master at speed. Really an unnecessary challenge. Many say they have mastered it, but measure shot to shot times and it is usually quite clear.
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And there lies the problem. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem becomes a nail.

DA/SA was not made for IPSC pistol competition. It evolved out of problems with EDC and using a pistol as defensive tool not a competitive tool to put holes in paper vs a timer where you the only carry you do is from the case to the firing line.
 
What davidsog said. When our department authorized semi-auto pistols as an option, I wangled my way into the first transition class. I subsequently carried a P series SIG for several years. I didn't feel the in the least handicapped in carrying a reliable DA/SA pistol. Of course this was an unexciting everyday work pistol, and I was not worried about what pistol was used in what war, what the latest hot selling pistol was, what champion pistol shooters used, split times, etc., etc..YMMV
 
My Beretta 80X Cheetah is a DA/SA (with decocker), and I have to say that the more I use it, the more I like it. In fact, it has become my primary EDC. The DA trigger pull is so smooth, I swear I am more accurate with that than I am in SA. With the RDS on it, it fits my needs perfectly.


Frank
 
Like a lot of things, a design intended to be good or the best at one thing isn't often the best at something else.

The DA/SA semi was not designed to win at speed shooting matches. SO, yes, its a bit difficult to turn in the very best scores and times. For many years (and I still have it and carry it when I carry) I used a Browning BDA 45. This is the early SIG P220 with Browning's name on it. It has the heel clip magazine release.

And when I played the speed games, I was a couple seconds slower with my magazine changes than the people who used the push button drop free magazine guns.

Naturally, I wasn't very happy about that, but eventually I came to realize that the only place it put me at a disadvantage was playing those games.

The heel clip is positive, ambidextrous, and virtually impossible to accidently release the magazine. No accidental bump of the mag catch button by hand, holster or other object is really possible, unlike the usual button behind the trigger on most service semis.

Also while gaming thing out with friends, and considering the classic post-collapse survival gun fight type situation, we figured that while the drop free mag shooters did get a small time advantage when it came to continues fire rate, when the situation required movement, and repeat fire, the guys who dropped their mags to the ground wound up having to scramble to pick them up, or abandon them when they moved, neither of which was a particularly the best option.

There's no free lunch, and a gun designed to be good at combat or personal defense might not be the best thing for a particular game.
 
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