While I get where folks are going with the intended purpose of a firearm having an impact on the use of that firearm for other purposes (and I agree with those comments), it’s somewhat of an odd point in this context given that the DA/SA Shadow 2 is one of the most popular pistols in certain USPSA divisions. Like I shared earlier, there are plenty of competition shooters that are able to shoot DA/SA quickly. Like a number of things in life it takes practice to get good.
Case for DA/SA…
- Thread starter Nathan
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Tactical Jackalope
New member
Chiming in again. I took my HK USP 9 Compact and HK P30L out to the range today on the "oh so horrible" DA/SA brush up. And needless to say, the hindrance people are mentioning from the first DA pull to the next SA pulls thereafter are mere projections and possibly justification as to why they don't want to pursue such pistols? Maybe?
Within 2 -3 magazines, I acclimated back to DA/SA transitions fairly quickly. Stoppage drills, Mozambique, distance headshots (cocked hammer to SA and even did some in DA), etc.
This was 400 rounds and when I came home, I gave my USP 9 Compact a hell of a cleaning. Nothing better than having such a great hone in session at the range. By the time I was wrapping up I had done all possibly drills that I could that an indoor range can offer at the time. Main focus was DA/SA today and it went very well, so I'm happy about that.
X was cut out, 10 ring was where I mostly stayed and 9 ring with DA/SA.
I'd even be as bold as to say that with the 147gr that I shoot from my Glock 19 Gen 3 with an RMR as well as the HKs I fired today, the recoil impulse of the HKs was far more pleasant to shoot and I think I did better on the DA/SA HKs over the Glock Gen 3 because I've been shooting Gen 5 Performance triggers for the last year and half. I really got used to the full cocked striker trigger pull instead of the Gen 1 -4 and now optional Gen 5 triggers. Insult to injury and why I needed to brush up on DA/SA again, I also had a lot of trigger time behind a very well broken in Walther Q4 SF which is an absolute joy to shoot.
Pardon the method of writing, it's late, can't sleep, my head hurts, and I hit "refresh" to see what's new on here.
DA/SA = Good. If you WANT it. Like Kay in MIB said. "Oh yeah, it's worth it!" lol won't say the rest, some might take offense.
Cheers, guys.
Within 2 -3 magazines, I acclimated back to DA/SA transitions fairly quickly. Stoppage drills, Mozambique, distance headshots (cocked hammer to SA and even did some in DA), etc.
This was 400 rounds and when I came home, I gave my USP 9 Compact a hell of a cleaning. Nothing better than having such a great hone in session at the range. By the time I was wrapping up I had done all possibly drills that I could that an indoor range can offer at the time. Main focus was DA/SA today and it went very well, so I'm happy about that.
X was cut out, 10 ring was where I mostly stayed and 9 ring with DA/SA.
I'd even be as bold as to say that with the 147gr that I shoot from my Glock 19 Gen 3 with an RMR as well as the HKs I fired today, the recoil impulse of the HKs was far more pleasant to shoot and I think I did better on the DA/SA HKs over the Glock Gen 3 because I've been shooting Gen 5 Performance triggers for the last year and half. I really got used to the full cocked striker trigger pull instead of the Gen 1 -4 and now optional Gen 5 triggers. Insult to injury and why I needed to brush up on DA/SA again, I also had a lot of trigger time behind a very well broken in Walther Q4 SF which is an absolute joy to shoot.
Pardon the method of writing, it's late, can't sleep, my head hurts, and I hit "refresh" to see what's new on here.
DA/SA = Good. If you WANT it. Like Kay in MIB said. "Oh yeah, it's worth it!" lol won't say the rest, some might take offense.
Cheers, guys.
ammo.crafter
New member
sa/da
Like having the choice and have carried both and competed with both platforms as well.
Recently was able to shoot the FBI Q course and fired a perfect score using my ancient Hi Power. It did get lots of laughs when I walked on the range with it.
Then again, my present CCW is a SIG P365.
Like having the choice and have carried both and competed with both platforms as well.
Recently was able to shoot the FBI Q course and fired a perfect score using my ancient Hi Power. It did get lots of laughs when I walked on the range with it.
Then again, my present CCW is a SIG P365.
Having shot DA/SA revolvers at the beginning of my learnings to shoot handguns, I still just like the DA/SA option. I don't have an issue with a DA/SA semi-auto. (I have seen some guys just do the DA first shot as a 'throwaway' just to get to the next SA shots.)
Like Steve said earlier and I removed 2 that I don't really use/do:
1. I like a heavy first pull instead of a safety.
4. I don't have to pull the trigger to remove the slide.
5. While most DA/SA triggers have some take up, it doesn't feel like a staple gun.
6. I don't like triggers with a "dingus" or an extra hinge in the middle.
Like Steve said earlier and I removed 2 that I don't really use/do:
1. I like a heavy first pull instead of a safety.
4. I don't have to pull the trigger to remove the slide.
5. While most DA/SA triggers have some take up, it doesn't feel like a staple gun.
6. I don't like triggers with a "dingus" or an extra hinge in the middle.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Who makes (or made) a DA/SA revolver?TheFlash said:
Yes, I know many/most DA revolvers can be fired in SA mode by manually cocking the hammer, but DA/SA in the context of semi-autos (and this discussion) refers to firearms with which the first shot is DA and, since the slide cocks the hammer, subsequent sots are SA.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Not exactly mainstream or everyday carry ...tangolima said:
Davisdog, Tunnelrat, and others pretty much put this to bed already, but I'll chime in too. The CZ Shadow 2 is fairly respected in certain competition circles. I've seen/heard of the CZ P09 (with some modifications) being pretty popular as well. The former head LEO firearms instructor for my state was also a sponsored competitor in USPSA and he shot a Beretta 92. And was quite competitive regionally in the production division not very many years ago.
I’m not suggesting a person shouldn’t carry a DA/SA. I cannot tell others what to do. If I do, it is advice at best! That said,
I agree a person can train to excel on the first shot. I agree that SA shooting can be done at a high level. The transition is nearly impossible to overcome at speed, which is why they are not used in competition. I’m asking isn’t shot to shot speed important in self defense with the opposing side able and willing to exchange fire? If not, why not?
It is my opinion that the DA/SA was built around the fear of revolver to semiautomatic transition. Police decision makers had accepted the heavy pull and no safety to forget of a revolver for years. It was a given. They wanted people held at gun point with a heavy trigger. This made training less of a burden. It also made decocking important and a safety secondary. Then SA allowed for improved accuracy once in the fight. With higher capacity the first rounds effectiveness meant less.
As society has changed, the placement of each round has become more important and the use in the gunfighting role has also become more important. Training still lags. There has been an acceptance of relatively light triggers in safetyless guns. It is so prolific that it would be hard to sue your local pd for shooting you with a safetyless gun due to the guns inherently unsafe design. They would just point out all the other departments running safetyless guns!
I agree a person can train to excel on the first shot. I agree that SA shooting can be done at a high level. The transition is nearly impossible to overcome at speed, which is why they are not used in competition. I’m asking isn’t shot to shot speed important in self defense with the opposing side able and willing to exchange fire? If not, why not?
Why is that? IME, it is because those guns can have amazing SA pulls and the competitors either modify to SAO or run them as SAO.5whiskey said:
It is my opinion that the DA/SA was built around the fear of revolver to semiautomatic transition. Police decision makers had accepted the heavy pull and no safety to forget of a revolver for years. It was a given. They wanted people held at gun point with a heavy trigger. This made training less of a burden. It also made decocking important and a safety secondary. Then SA allowed for improved accuracy once in the fight. With higher capacity the first rounds effectiveness meant less.
As society has changed, the placement of each round has become more important and the use in the gunfighting role has also become more important. Training still lags. There has been an acceptance of relatively light triggers in safetyless guns. It is so prolific that it would be hard to sue your local pd for shooting you with a safetyless gun due to the guns inherently unsafe design. They would just point out all the other departments running safetyless guns!
I was faster out of the holster with my S&W 2nd Gen 645, and later a 3rd Gen 4566, than any of my 1911s, all shooting the same .45 ball ammo. That’s because no millisecond delay was needed to swipe off a thumb safety. From draw-stroke to sight-pic to DA first-shot, the S&Ws were just faster in putting the first round COM into an IPSC target. The 645 actually has a better, smoother DA trigger pull than the 4566. In SA, both triggers are excellent.
My experience as well.
This is factually untrue and people have pointed this out to you multiple times. The CZ Shadow 2 is the most popular USPSA Production pistol and in that division must be shot DA/SA (below is an article with the most recent accounting I could find). Edit: it’s also not even close. Of the shooters at USPSA Nationals in 2020, 39% were using the CZ Shadow 2. The next closest was 12% and was the EAA Tanfoglio Witness Stock 2, which is also DA/SA. The Glock 34, SIG P320, and SIG X5 Legion were at 9% each
https://www.ssusa.org/content/top-uspsa-production-handguns-in-2020/
It’s somewhat baffling to me to see people going on about what is or isn’t used in competition when they apparently don’t know what they’re taking about, or at least don’t know what is or isn’t used in one of the most popular competitions.
Edit: the CZ Shadow 2 was also the second most popular pistol in Carry Optics at 22% to the number one SIG P320 X5 Legion at 26%. The SIG P320 was at 8% and the Glock 34 at 7%.
https://www.ssusa.org/content/top-uspsa-carry-optics-guns-and-gear-in-2020/
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I'd consider shot to shot speed of minimal importance during self defense and in addition, there is almost no time difference between the first DA and subsequent SA actions.
Shot to shot is the key phrase. After the initial DA shot how does the shot to shot speed vary when in SA mode?
The most important thing IMHO is the time to select targets and the decision to fire or most importantly, not fire.
TunnelRat said:
USPSA Rule Book said:
Maybe it is this lack of choice that drives their popularity as a DA/SA gun. I was talking about less limited classes of competition.
Thanks. Interesting comments about shot-to-shot speed. I guess I figure I’m shooting 9,40,45….none of those have the ability to stop all the time in 1 shot. So that second shot is pretty important. You must see it differently. How? I agree that in theory shot 2 to 3 shout be fast, but often, I often have a bobble there too related to shot 2 going a little faster than expected. I have no doubt with more training, I could improve. That said when SAO w/ safety pistols exist, I see little value in going with something lesser. I wonder what I’m giving up with 5-6lb SAO and striker guns w/ manual safeties??
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There are quite a few pistols that fall into the Production category. Single action pistols are historically broken out into their own divisions.
Which competitions specifically were you talking about?
The way I see it, first shot DA is for emergency when a shot has to be fired so quickly that there is no time to cock the hammer. When there is no such emergency I just cock the hammer and go SAO. However I should practice the DA pull to be prepared. With that in mind I never whine about DA/SA's inconsistency in trigger pull.
People complain Glock's trigger pull is like DAO. But it can be shot similar to DA/SA if I reset the trigger after each shot.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
People complain Glock's trigger pull is like DAO. But it can be shot similar to DA/SA if I reset the trigger after each shot.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
When I made time for it and competed in local IDPA and bowling pin, there were many guns. To be clear ~80% were striker fired and most of those were Glock.
After that, 1911’s were probably the next largest group, then a few CZ’s SAO, a few revolvers, and 1 person who shot an Sig DA/SA the best I’ve ever seen. Although, I think she had a lot of rounds downrange. She used that like I use my hand! I don’t remember if she struggled with DA to SA in times. She did shoot a level above everyone else, but often finished out of Top 3. I cannot say why.
There are a lot of competitions. The Shadow 2 and by extension DA/SA pistols are quite popular in USPSA. That you don’t shoot those yourself doesn’t change that popularity. Therefore blanket statements like “DA/SA aren’t used in competition”, are probably not a great idea without caveats. The Shadow 2 is more popular in Production than a number of striker fired pistols.
There’s a tendency among people to think that their personal experience is indicative of the whole. That’s often not the case, especially in something as diverse as the shooting sports.
There’s a tendency among people to think that their personal experience is indicative of the whole. That’s often not the case, especially in something as diverse as the shooting sports.
You are right. If I said that, I didn’t say it right. I would, should have said if a person has wide open choice of weapon and the competition prioritizes speed, accuracy at reasonable pistol ranges (3yds to 30 yds) that DA/SA is not used……or something like that. That said, there is a lot going on in pistol choice nowadays in open. Sure the 2011 is the best it recoil management, trigger, sighting, capacity, but it is the worst in the most important in the most important factor for any competitive pro……income. There is little money available for a 2011 shooter compared to winning with a Glock, CZ, or S&W.
I wonder if CZ buying Colt and the new Prodigy will change that??
I agree. I’ve never seen anybody who didn’t struggle with DA/SA, but how many shooters have I really seen? …other than one I cannot remember.
I agree that shooting sports are diverse, especially locally. They are also quick to normalize and promote modern production over older designs to continue their main purpose which is to sell guns and increase participation. I’m surprised they don’t force you to keep the MIM filled actions in production class of production guns.