Case for DA/SA…

Nathan said:
You are right. If I said that, I didn’t say it right. I would, should have said if a person has wide open choice of weapon and the competition prioritizes speed, accuracy at reasonable pistol ranges (3yds to 30 yds) that DA/SA is not used……or something like that.
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Except that is also wrong. The only thing you can’t use in USPSA Production are single action pistols. Striker fired pistols like Glocks are allowed. There is plenty of prioritization on speed and accuracy in Production and Carry Optics. You seem so hell bent on your own perception of DA/SA that it’s apparently impossible for you to imagine people using them well and even against others using pistols you might do better with personally (even though you admitted you have seen someone use one well firsthand). It’s some of the most myopic behavior I have ever seen here.

The irony of all of this is I don’t even like the Shadow 2. I think the balance stinks and the controls aren’t what I like. But even I can acknowledge when something I don’t like is used by others, and used well.
 
Nathan said:
Sure the 2011 is the best it recoil management, trigger, sighting, capacity, but it is the worst in the most important in the most important factor for any competitive pro……income. There is little money available for a 2011 shooter compared to winning with a Glock, CZ, or S&W.

I wonder if CZ buying Colt and the new Prodigy will change that??

I agree that shooting sports are diverse, especially locally. They are also quick to normalize and promote modern production over older designs to continue their main purpose which is to sell guns and increase participation. I’m surprised they don’t force you to keep the MIM filled actions in production class of production guns.
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I own two 2011s, a Staccato P and a Staccato C2. They’re nice pistols. But when I take them out and shoot them back to back with a number of other pistols, I’d be lying if I said I felt that the price premium could be completely felt in just the shooting experience. It is true that shooting a single action only trigger is generally easier than a number of other options. But the size of 2011 grips is large for a lot of hand sizes due to their magazines being modified double stack 45 magazines and I can’t tell you that recoil wise there aren’t other pistols that compete or are better. In terms of sights, mine have a blacked out rear and fiber optic front or have an optic mounted. That’s available on a bunch of pistols. They’re also matched in capacity by a number of other pistols.

As for barrier of entry, these days it’s not just the Prodigy on the affordable end (though my Prodigy was a poor experience). Tisas, Live Free Armory, MAC, and Stealth Arms have a number of affordable options, some below $1000. Additionally, the cost of ammunition can overtake what you spend on the pistol once you start shooting heavily. I think single action only pistols being in their own divisions requiring a dedicated group of those shooters locally was more of a deterrent, as well as them not being allowed in Carry Optics (many people like to use dots). Limited Optics was added in 2023 and it will be interesting to see if that is kept now that it has completed its 1 year provisional period.

As for the focus on modern production over older designs, what exactly is modern in 2024? Glocks are over 40 years old. DA/SA is as old as 1909 from a search on this forum (though that was not in 9mm). Are they modern? If we’re talking recent popularity I would argue DA/SA is at a low point compared to years past, so I don’t think it’s the “modern” choice. Even the explosion of popularity in the 2011 is a revamp of a design over 100 years old. If your point was in the past that was true, I can believe that. But nothing today is really that different from pistols decades ago. Sighting systems have changed, but the Browning tilting barrel design in a semiautomatic pistol feeding from a detachable magazine is still the general standard.
 
@Aguila Blanca:
My point about DA/SA revolvers is that I do not just shoot SA-only revolvers.
When I do shoot my DA/SA revolvers (in a 'regular' revolver context and not semi-autos), I mix my practice with both DA and SA.
Many are aware that those who typically shoot revolvers that are both DA and SA capable, generally (key word) are better at shooting semi-autos...
 
Originally Posted by Nathan:
Can you explain how the safety being flicked off simultaneous to pressing the gun to the target adds time? I don’t understand.
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Sure. :rolleyes: … Because thumbing-down a 1911’s safety is not occurring “simultaneous to” pressing through on its trigger. On a 1911, that’s always a two-step move, no matter how you rationalize it, because a 1911’s trigger won’t move until it’s off-safe.

While your thumb is flicking off the safety, my index finger has already completed pulling thru a smooth first-shot DA stroke and the bullet has left the 645’s or 4566’s barrel. (You can assume equal draw-stroke speeds and equal sight-pic acquisitions as between your 1911 and my DA/SA pistols.)

Easy-peasy.
 
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Nathan said:
So I’m wondering what the continued demand that keeps the few DA/SA guns around?? I’m interested in the discussion because I must be missing something.
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The thread has drifted away from the OP's original premise and question. I'll try to get it back on track and share my reason for carrying/self-defense re the DA/SA sidearms. My bedside gun is a Sig P220 45 ACP. It's DA first shot; SA thereafter. That's the way I like it. If I were to be awakened in the wee hours of the morning I'd like several extra pounds of trigger pull to maybe avoid an unintentional consequence. That's why my Glock 19 isn't next to the bed. It's in a whole 'nother place.

And so that I don't get confused as to firearm type in the heat of the moment, all my CCWs are either DA only, or DA/SA. My daily carry is a Sig P226 DA/SA. If I have to draw in a hurry, it's just like my bedside gun.

Now, if I carried one of my 1911s, I'd have to (in the heat of the moment) remember to disengage the safety. But knowing myself, I might just draw the 1911 and try to pull the trigger with the safety on. That would give the bad guy the opportunity to fire first. So I stick with DA/SA.

My other CCW sidearms are a Ruger SP101 DAK and Sig P239 DAK. Again, neither require a safety, but have a substantial trigger pull (compared to, say, my Colt Gold Cup). I'd hate to injure someone simply because of a Sympathetic Muscle Response. The DAK or DA/SA action helps against that phenomenon.

When I'm in a crisis situation, I don't remember all that I know. I only do what I know to do and that's why my SD firearms are the same. That's also why I always carry in an OWB strong side open top holster.

If I carried in a shoulder rig part of the time, crossdraw with snap part of the time, OWB with snap part of the time, etc, again, I'd get flustered in a crisis and lose precious time trying to remember a) where my gun is and b) how to get it out of the holster.
 
Except that is also wrong. The only thing you can’t use in USPSA Production are single action pistols. Striker fired pistols like Glocks are allowed. There is plenty of prioritization on speed and accuracy in Production and Carry Optics. You seem so hell bent on your own perception of DA/SA that it’s apparently impossible for you to imagine people using them well and even against others using pistols you might do better with personally (even though you admitted you have seen someone use one well firsthand). It’s some of the most myopic behavior I have ever seen here.
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100% agreed with every word of this.

Cognitive dissonance. In my half asleep last post, I mentioned how it only took me a few magazines to acclimate.
 
TheFlash said:
@Aguila Blanca:
My point about DA/SA revolvers is that I do not just shoot SA-only revolvers.
When I do shoot my DA/SA revolvers (in a 'regular' revolver context and not semi-autos), I mix my practice with both DA and SA.
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Not at all the same as a DA/SA semi-auto, where the first shot is DA and the next shot is SA with no intervention by you.
 
While your thumb is flicking off the safety, my index finger has already completed pulling thru a smooth first-shot DA stroke and the bullet has left the 645’s or 4566’s barrel.
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If you are stroking when I am flicking, you are dumping a round in the dirt. My safety is long gone by the time I am on target. But that is for targets under controlled conditions.

I am like Foghorn Leghorn when it comes to home defense, I consider a DA/SA safer in a startled state. My hideout guns are DAO or Glock.
 
While your thumb is flicking off the safety, my index finger has already completed pulling thru a smooth first-shot DA stroke and the bullet has left the 645’s or 4566’s barrel. (You can assume equal draw-stroke speeds and equal sight-pic acquisitions as between your 1911 and my DA/SA pistols.)
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Jim beat me to it, but I am much the same, the safety comes off as part of the draw, well before the gun presents to the target. IF you are pulling through a smooth first shot DA stroke and the bullet leaves the barrel at the same point in the draw that I am flicking my safety off, you've just shot your holster, or you leg, or your foot, or the ground in front of you.

The only thing you can’t use in USPSA Production are single action pistols.
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Would you please clarify this statement, for those of us who don't play that particular game?? Are single action pistols prohibited by the rules??? or are you saying you "can't" use them because you would not be competitive??
 
USPSA Production Division is limited to DA/SA, DAO, and striker fired pistols by rule. There are five pages of specifications in the rules.

Not only that, they must be specifically listed for Production by make and model.
 
44 AMP said:
Would you please clarify this statement, for those of us who don't play that particular game?? Are single action pistols prohibited by the rules??? or are you saying you "can't" use them because you would not be competitive??
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Jim answered it and Nathan has it posted above as well.
 
Thank you for the explanation. Its a rules thing.

Not only that, they must be specifically listed for Production by make and model.
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So, I could not use my P.08 Luger?? (unless it was specifically listed in their rules, right??)
 
Sorry, AMP, the Luger is not on the Production list. It would probably be best off in Limited.

But the P38 is Production approved.
 
Jim Watson said:
I am like Foghorn Leghorn when it comes to home defense, I consider a DA/SA safer in a startled state. My hideout guns are DAO or Glock.
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I have never had someone assault me while I had a firearm. I have done force on force on multiple occasions. Because I was part of those events over a period of time I have done force on force with 3 different action types, specifically a SIG P226 that was DA/SA, a SIG P226 that was DAK, and a SIG P320. All of these were UTM pistols.

Even in what was an artificial situation my adrenaline was up. I had no conscious recognition that the trigger was any heavier or lighter than the pistols I normally shot. I was mashing that trigger to the rear while trying to maintain a decent sight picture. After those events I questioned how much a heavier DA trigger would really help in a startled situation, at least for me. Those force on force experiences reemphasized for me how critical it is to have good trigger finger discipline and muzzle management.
 
@TunnelRat,
You are spot on about not feeling the long, heavy double action trigger under adrenaline. In my younger and more arrogant days, I felt I had enough experience that putting my finger on the trigger of a long, heavy double action trigger would not result in an unintentional discharge. I figured the split second of moving my finger from the frame of the gun to the trigger could put me at a disadvantage as if a split second mattered. I heard a noise in the back of the house and went to check it out. I had the gun at low ready when I heard a loud bang (possibly car backfiring?). That long heavy ~12 lb. pull of my Sig P229 didn’t do a damn thing to stop me from squeezing off a round as I flinched to that loud noise. Thank GOD I had the gun pointed at low ready or it could have been really bad.

I still feel I am going to be more accurate and faster on my first shot with a striker fired or single action only gun compared to a double action trigger. My rationale for switching from an Sig P228 to a Glock 26 was the Glock had a consistent trigger pull from the first shot to the last shot. The Sig had a much cleaner and shorter trigger pull in single action, but I was concerned about throwing a shot in double action in a self-defense situation. When I first started shooting, I used to go weekly, and sometimes more than once a week. I fired in DA and SA so there was no lack of trigger time.
 
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