Carrying live round

[maxkimber]

"for most of the time that autoloaders have been around chamber empty was the preferred mode of carry"

- Like I stated above, the earlier models did not have the internal safety devices; thus, it was not necessarily the 'preferred' method of carry, but it was the safest; but now, with newer autoloaders it is just as safe to carry a loaded vs. unloaded. An example if I may, back in the old Corps, when we carried old .45s, there was no round in the chamber, unsafe. Did we like it, no, but it was the safest method of carry - and we hated it (not the round, but the method of carry with the old .45s). Now with the M9/Sig, there is a round in the chamber. Some branches/divisions now carry new .45s and guess what, there is a round in the chamber.

I do not believe the old vs new argument works in this argument...


"there are advantages and disadvantages for each method of carry"

- I am curious, what are the advantages of carrying an unloaded gun?

 

[maxkimber]

"We don't have to go near racking the shotgun again - please, Oh, Lord!"

I agree...

(How do you quote, why can't I find the quote button?)

 

[David Armstrong]

Some branches/divisions now carry new .45s and guess what, there is a round in the chamber.

And just as some now carry chamber loaded, some still mandate chamber empty. Doesn't seem to matter much, which is my point.

I do not believe the old vs new argument works in this argument...

If it has worked well for years, and it still works well in most other parts of the world, it seems strange that it should suddenly become useless in some places.

I am curious, what are the advantages of carrying an unloaded gun?

It is not an unloaded gun. There is a magazine full of rounds loaded in it. Advantages will differ for different people in different situations. You mentioned one already--guns that are not equipped with some of the more modern safety designs. Another might be if your situation requires you to load/unload a lot. Some guns the safety is hard to get too or to operate for some people. Others might find the first DA pull of a DA/SA gun to be problematic. Again, it is always situational. What is an advantage for one person in one situation might be a disadvantage for another person or in another situation. But, as mentioned, in the overall scheme of life it really doesn't matter much. Either method works fine for virtually all non-LE situations.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

"We don't have to go near racking the shotgun again - please, Oh, Lord!"

I agree...

(How do you quote, why can't I find the quote button?)

Copy the text. Paste into a reply box. Look at the top row under Message.

See the two arrows on the right.

Under that there are two boxes - the left is a scene with a mountain for inserting images.

Next is a word ballon - hit that and it puts quotes html tags around the text.

Then chamber a round and rack your shotgun and point it at the CPU and yell you'd better put quotes on or you're a

 

[maxkimber]

"And just as some now carry chamber loaded, some still mandate chamber empty. Doesn't seem to matter much, which is my point."

The ones that mandate an empty chamber are lead by old-school leaders who haven't educated themselves on the new weapons - ignorance is not bliss. Example, I have seen a law enforcement unit that only carried 7 round in their 15 round magazines and no round in their chamber - what do you think they carried? They carried the M-9. There is no logical explanation for carrying only 7 rounds in their magazines and no reason to not have a round in the chamber??? The answer is the leadership used to carry the old .45, and that was how it was done in the old days...so that is how it is still done - ignorance.

I agree, if you carry an older gun, with no internal safeties, do not carry it with a round in the chamber (although die-hards will still argue this point - I do too, but would not condone/recommend it for others)

"Some guns the safety is hard to get too or to operate for some people."
- Then they shouldn't be carrying that weapon or they need effective training.

"Either method works fine for virtually all non-LE situations"
- I respectfully disagree. Read some other 8 pages on the link I posted about "Time to Rack a Round."

I mean not disrespect, just defending my point. If you desire to carry a gun with no round chambered - go for it. But seriously ask yourself why? Look at the polling numbers on this thread...

 

[Creature]

As my buddy Dave points out most incidents will be handled with a chambered or unchambered gun with most likely a positive outcome.

(my bold)

Maxkimber has very solid points. Its those "black swan" incidents that always bite the hardest. I can only image the poor sucker and how he feels during his "Oh darn, if only I had just chambered that first round..." moment. I am a firm believer that what can go wrong will go wrong...especially in a fast developing situation. Forgetting to chamber a round while defending oneself during an attack is a self-inflicted, and possibly mortal, wound. The KISS principle wasn't invented yesterday and IMO is more important in civilian SD situations then ever.

 

[maxkimber]

Copy the text. Paste into a reply box. Look at the top row under Message.

See the two arrows on the right.

Under that there are two boxes - the left is a scene with a mountain for inserting images.

Next is a word ballon - hit that and it puts quotes html tags around the text.

Thanks mate...

 

[David Armstrong]

The ones that mandate an empty chamber are lead by old-school leaders who haven't educated themselves on the new weapons - ignorance is not bliss.

Maybe, maybe not. My cousin, who is a bit of a wheel in the AF, mandated chamber empty carry for handguns after 3 NDs. He's quite educated, BTW---Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc. But again, it really doesn't matter much, which is my main point. Lots of talking about it, but it ranks right up there with revolver vs auto, 9mm vs 45, and so on.

Then they shouldn't be carrying that weapon or they need effective training.

Why? If they are happy with it, and it works fine, what is the problem? I've got a few Israeli friends and old SAS friends, very well trained, who still carry chamber empty that I would put up against most other folks and not have any worry at all. My wife carries a Makarov chamber empty. It's the gun she carried for years working with the Russian militia, and she is good with it and fast. Why should she change?

I respectfully disagree. Read some other 8 pages on the link I posted about "Time to Rack a Round."

One can disagree all they want, but it doesn't change a thing. History has shown that all these worries about chamber empty carry just don't seem to translate into real life. Speaking of time, that is one of the best examples, one I use a lot. Let's say (for purpose of discussion only) that it takes 1 second to draw the gun. Let's also say that it takes 1/10th of a secdond to rack the slide. So, if the attack occurs in the less than 1 second time frame, it doesn't matter. If it occurs in the more than 1.1 second time frame it doesn't mater. The only time it matters is if the attack fall in that narrow 1/10th of a second between 1 second and less than 1.1 seconds.

I mean not disrespect, just defending my point.

No problem, and I tend to agree. Given modern arms, modern training, etc. chamber loaded is the natural default and it is what I usually teach my clients. My point is that a technique that has been successful for decades doesn't suddenly become useless just because something neew comes along, and that there are still some situations where chamber empty can make sense.

 

[Frank Ettin]

And maxkimber,

If you add =name after QUOTE in the first bracket,i. e.,

you will get

.....

And thus you can easily identify the person being quoted.

As for the question of carrying with a round chambered, maybe it won't matter almost all of the time. In fact, almost all of us will get through our entire lives without having ever having to use our guns, except for recreation. And maybe one, with practice, can chamber a round very quickly. But I do know at least one person who tells the story of being attacked late at night, being knocked to the ground onto his weak side and having only his strong hand to draw and take the first shot with his weapon. Black Swan? Perhaps. But in his case, at that time, having a round chambered made The difference.

So my choice is to pick a type of gun I feel confident carrying with a loaded chamber and that I can deploy with one hand if necessary.

 

[maxkimber]

Good discussion...

"The ones that mandate an empty chamber are lead by old-school leaders who haven't educated themselves on the new weapons - ignorance is not bliss."
Maybe, maybe not. My cousin, who is a bit of a wheel in the AF, mandated chamber empty carry for handguns after 3 NDs. He's quite educated, BTW---Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc. But again, it really doesn't matter much, which is my main point. Lots of talking about it, but it ranks right up there with revolver vs auto, 9mm vs 45, and so on.

This is a training issue, not a round in the chamber issue. I have been around NDs with an empty chamber, both handguns and shotguns - kids will be kids. It really blows my mind, but when some are out in the 'field' on on a 'post,' they get bored. I had a guy that would bring in his own ammo and shoot rabbits with is service pistol - WOW!!!

"Some guns the safety is hard to get too or to operate for some people."
- Then they shouldn't be carrying that weapon or they need effective training.

My point here was, if you can not effectively operate the weapons safeties, whether there is a round in the chamber or not, choose a different weapon. One must be comfortable and confident with the weapon of choice to truly be proficient. Training and/or practice will rectify this issue.

Shooting the M-9 for years, then shooting the Sig - you would be surprised how many of us swept a nonexistent safety on the Sig as we raised to fire - muscle memory is very powerful. So, if you practice a lot anything is possible - the problem many of us do not get adequate training practice on a regular basis.

and that there are still some situations where chamber empty can make sense.

When???

 

[OnTheFly]

I'm very cautious about carrying a firearm concealed. I don't ever want anything bad to happen so I leave ALL my ammo at home. Chamber empty, no magazine in the gun, and no spare magazine. Better safe than sorry I always say.

Fly

Yes...I am joking. One in the chamber and my brain is my safety.

 

[David Armstrong]

This is a training issue, not a round in the chamber issue.

It can be both. IIRC, there are still a fair number of NDs with our troops, in spite of all the training.

I have been around NDs with an empty chamber, both handguns and shotguns - kids will be kids.

I think by definition you cannot have an ND with an empty chamber.

My point here was, if you can not effectively operate the weapons safeties, whether there is a round in the chamber or not, choose a different weapon.

And my point is "why?" If you like the weapon, if you are good with it, and if it is one of those "it just doesn't matter" issues, why change. There is no need and no gain.

One must be comfortable and confident with the weapon of choice to truly be proficient.

I'll agree with that, but that has nothing to do with carrying chamber empty or loaded. One can have the chamber loaded and not be proficient, one can have the chamber empty and be very proficient.

the problem many of us do not get adequate training practice on a regular basis.

That might be more supportive of chamber empty than chamber loaded.

When???

Perhaps you missed the earlier post:

"....guns that are not equipped with some of the more modern safety designs. Another might be if your situation requires you to load/unload a lot. Some guns the safety is hard to get too or to operate for some people. Others might find the first DA pull of a DA/SA gun to be problematic. Again, it is always situational. What is an advantage for one person in one situation might be a disadvantage for another person or in another situation."

 

[maxkimber]

Mr. Armstrong,

Great discussion, but I must restrain from responding as we are going in circles. So, we disagree and I do it amicability.

I solicit others to join in the fun...

Regards,
Max

P.S. A negligent discharge(ND) is an accidental discharge of a firearm involving culpable carelessness.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

While I'm clearly on the chambered side, I offer from Ruger:

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/LCPRecall/index.html


Ruger has recently received a small number of reports from the field indicating that LCP pistols can discharge when dropped onto a hard surface with a round in the chamber. We are firmly committed to safety and would like to retrofit all older LCP Pistols. The retrofit involves installation of an upgraded hammer mechanism at no charge to the customer.


We want to remind gun users that, for maximum safety when carrying any pistol with a loaded magazine in place, the chamber should be empty, and the slide should be closed. Any gun may fire if dropped or struck.

See, someone thinks so.

 

[alloy]

i only carry a barney bullet in my shirt pocket.

 

[Deet]

ALways ready with one in the chamber, either a Kel Tec P11 or my Ruger P95

 

[David Armstrong]

While I'm clearly on the chambered side, I offer from Ruger:

I would like to point out that I too am on the chambered side. Where I tend to disagree with many is the idea that chamber empty is useless, is always wrong, will get you killed, is like carrying a club, is evidence of fear of firearms, indicates lack of training, and the assorted other wild claims that are obviously wrong.

 

[OldMarksman]

The OP is in Pakistan and his environment s undoubtedly different from that of most of us.

When I kept a DA/SA semi-auto for home defense I kept a round chambered.

When I took a CCW course, I learned that I could not in most cases produce the gun until a probable attacker was close to me, and that I had at most a little more than two seconds to draw and fire. To me that doesn't leave enough time to cycle the slide, and the answer is obvious--for that application.

Now, for LEO or military carry the same restrictions may not apply. I don't know.

The only semi-auto I've ever fired that I would never carry with a round cambered was a 7.62 Tokarev. It had no safety at all.

 

[maxkimber]

We want to remind gun users that, for maximum safety when carrying any pistol with a loaded magazine in place, the chamber should be empty, and the slide should be closed. Any gun may fire if dropped or struck.

This is legal-ise for please do not sue us...

 

[maxkimber]

I never stated what I carry...

Beretta PX4 Type-C in .40S&W. There is no external safety on this weapon and there is no magazine lock (can be fired without a magazine inserted - a requirement for any gun I CCW).