Carrying at work even though its against policy

M

marie1

Moderator
Hi guys,

I just got my concealed carry pistol license but got a couple questions hope you dont mind. I have had the license for a few weeks but have not carried yet since the employee handbook says it is against the rules.

Have anyone ever carried whene the employee handbook says it is prohibited and got problems from it??
And does this mean the carrying the pistol is illegal, or is the worst that can happens getting canned from work?

I work at a clinic in a low income area, and any given day hhave to walk past protestors at the door some very creepy/agressive, and sometimes thuggish sidewalk dwellers.

Already made up my mind I am not going to work again without some protection after an incident last week :(
 
Not sure where you live, but here in Missouri it is permissible to conceal carry in a medical facility or hospital with the express consent of the head of said facility or hospital. Requesting permission might be something to consider regardless of what the manual says considering your current situation and genuine concerns.
Some states it would be a crime without question.

Of course you've got to question if your job is worth your safety, or your safety is worth your job?
 
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A lot of it will depend on state law. Some States say that a posted sign does not have the force of law and ignoring such a sign is not illegal. My State is that way. The most that can happen if caught with a gun inside such a place is i can be asked to leave. Refusal to leave may result in a Trespassing issue, but the permit is valid and im not illegally carrying my pistol

If your permit is not valid at your place of work..Govt property, etc. then you have a problem.

Either way, your employer can fire you for breaking that policy. So, if you do it, dont get caught!!:(
 
There is one other thing you need to consider.

If you break their rules, and wind up getting charged with a crime, even if it is "only" trespass, it could mean the end of your permit.

Or a denial when you try to renew it.

Another possibility, considering the rampant paranoia today, is a 911 call, police response, and lockdown of your facility if someone spots a gun. People panic for the oddest reasons these days, and if the authorities decide it was your fault (even unintentional) you might wind up facing charges for that.

A lot depends on your specific area & situation, but these are some things you should consider, beyond the risk of getting canned from your job.

its not an easy decision. Be aware of ALL the risks, not just the ones from "badguys".
 
44 AMP said:
There is one other thing you need to consider.

If you break their rules, and wind up getting charged with a crime, even if it is "only" trespass, it could mean the end of your permit.

Or a denial when you try to renew it.

Another possibility, considering the rampant paranoia today, is a 911 call, police response, and lockdown of your facility if someone spots a gun. People panic for the oddest reasons these days, and if the authorities decide it was your fault (even unintentional) you might wind up facing charges for that.

A lot depends on your specific area & situation, but these are some things you should consider, beyond the risk of getting canned from your job.

its not an easy decision. Be aware of ALL the risks, not just the ones from "badguys".
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I have to agree with 44 AMP here.

In addition, I think we have a resposibility, as advocates of the 2nd amendment, to honor the rights of the property owner. If a location is posted as a "Gun Free Zone," then I believe we have an obligation to honor that request. We cannot demand our right to carry and try to usurp someone else's right to control their property without engaging in either hypocrasy or some serious ethical gymnastics.

If your place of work does not allow the carry of concealed weapons, your two ethical options are to either leave your weapon at home or find a new job.
 
sharkbite said:
A lot of it will depend on state law. Some States say that a posted sign does not have the force of law and ignoring such a sign is not illegal. My State is that way. The most that can happen if caught with a gun inside such a place is i can be asked to leave.
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The OP specifically asked about carrying where the employee handbook says it is prohibited.

The prohibition may not have the force of law, but she can still lose her job by violating employee rules. I would consider that to be much more of a problem than being just asked to leave.
 
I have had the license for a few weeks but have not carried yet since the employee handbook says it is against the rules.
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That one is easy. If you value your job then don't carry.
 
There's lots of ways and means for self defense other than a gun.
"The gun is a tool, I am the weapon."
Maybe avoidance is best, like coming and going from a different door, where those sidewalk folks ain't?
 
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Provided that the state you reside in does not consider it a crime, it can not hurt to ask for permission from the powers that be.
In light of recent events like the incident late last month in Colorado, the response might not be what one would expect. Especially if there are "very creepy/aggressive, and sometimes thuggish sidewalk dwellers" encountered actively protesting on a regular basis.
 
turkeestalker said:
Provided that the state you reside in does not consider it a crime, it can not hurt to ask for permission from the powers that be.
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I tried that several years ago, when I took a second job working the closing shift at a Barnes & Noble book store in a strip mall at the fringe of a seedy part of the city. On my first day (a Monday) they gave me (and two other new hires) an employee handbook and told us to take it home, read it, and bring back the signed consent form. Buried in the manual was a "no guns in the store" provision.

On Tuesday I took the manager aside and explained to her that her store was open an hour later than any other business in the mall, people have been attacked in the parking lot, and that I wasn't comfortable closing the store and crossing the parking lot unarmed. I asked if I could keep my carry gun in my locker, and just carry it when leaving the store. She ran it up the food chain, and on Wednesday she told me the answer from corporate was "no."

Thursday I handed in my resignation, and Friday was my last day.

In my case, it was a second job, which made the decision a bit easier. It's not easy to walk away from your primary source of income. However, if you ignore the company's policy and play the "concealed means concealed" game, if you're found out you'll almost certainly lose your job anyway. And, as has been pointed out, depending on your state's laws you might also be charged with a crime.

It's a difficult decision, and nobody can make it for you.
 
know the laws of your state. In NC, where I am if you carried when asked not to you would be in violation of law in addition to the corporate policy.

If I were not violating state laws I wouldn't really care about the workplace policy but you could be fired for the violation...however concealed means concealed so no one should know you have it. However, if against state law there is NO way I would consider it. In fact, I work in a place where guns are banned and I do not carry and never would because it is against the law.

In light of recent events like the incident late last month in Colorado, the response might not be what one would expect.
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These policies are made by lawyers and there is no way they would ever say yes. Maybe if you work at a small business and its the owner that put together the policy, otherwise, no way would they agree.
 
Just a caution to posters:

1. Don't recommend breaking a law
2. Don't recommend breaking an employment rule so that someone loses their job.

Those contingencies are well known and TFL won't support suggestion of how to do this without discovery.

A person has to make their own decision but we won't aid in law/rule breaking.
 
You can say that there is no way that they would ever say yes, but I know of two RNs who do have expressed consent from management of the hospitals that they work in here in the state of Missouri. One hospital is rural, one is urban and only a few miles from a major city's limits. One has to check hers in with security when she enters the hospital, they keep it under lock and key and she retrieves it upon her exit. The other in the rural area keeps hers under her own control at her discretion, and wisely she keeps it on her person. Those are both instances involving actual hospitals not clinics, not certain if there would be any difference or not.
I am saying that if it were me, I would chance asking permission thus avoiding any issues providing it is legal to do so in the first place. Most likely if the answer were no, I would respond as Aguila Blanca did, but it being a primary job dictates the need to secure another job before taking that same action.
It is a difficult decision as stated, and no one can make it for you.
I wish you well with the choices you make.
 
The Choice is Yours

OP - I'm a big supporter of 2A, and a frequent shooter. You can pose this question to most CHL holders and gain a different answer each time. At the end of the day, the choice is up to you.

I live in Texas, which is a right to work state. There is a blurb in my company hand book about no weapons or firearms, that being said.... my office does not have either a 30.06 or a 51% sign posted at the door. This means that legally, I can carry my firearm to work with me as long as I am abiding by the state and federal laws. That being said, because Texas is a right to work state, and there is a blurb in the handbook, should my employer find me carrying a firearm at work, they could terminate my employment. They wouldn't be able to bring any criminal charges against me, but I would be fired.

Personally, the choice is up to you. I opt for the option of leaving my firearm in my vehicle and holstering it when I get to the truck. I disarm when I head into the office.

I will not advocate that you break the law while you conceal carry. IDK about the state laws in your area. Medical facilities are iffy in my opinion.

At the end of the day, only you can make the choice. Is losing your job and potentially bringing criminal trespass charges against you worth it? Have you discussed the issue with your employer? Are you able to find a new job that is 2A friendly?

Employee handbooks are written by lawyers who are concerned about the CYA bottom line. Your employer most likely will not change the handbook, but they may give you the verbal: We wont fire you for carrying, but if you are caught then you will be terminated. ie. if you fall, you are fired before you hit the ground.

Best of luck. Also, Internet Forums aren't the best place to obtain legal advice regarding the do's and don'ts of firearm carry.
 
I'd be cautious about carrying at work in Texas, some places still have rules placed by federal entities. Such as wind farms, and electrical power facilities. Oil and gas.

Now I remember that my ex worked at a rural small hospital, very rural, and had permission to carry. So I do edit my previous statement.

Nothing gives you more permission than permission
 
Ask permission to carry in writing, get a written response. Mention lockups and such for duration of your shift. Point out the perceived threats between the parking area and the front door, lack of security in the lobby, etc., etc.

Then see what develops. Maybe they'll permit carry, maybe they'll hire security.
 
My job doesn't permit carry by employees on the property.

But -

At a store location in a major metro where employees have been shot - a gun is permitted. Company policy can and will be modified where necessary to prevent Corporate being liable for the employee's safety. In other words, the employee carrying a gun was cheaper than hiring security guards, etc.

As said, ask. Outline the perceived dangers, and if anything, add in the number of assaults or crimes in the immediate vicinity. All a matter of police records. You will be establishing a credible basis for your request to someone sitting at a desk hundreds of miles away who has no idea how things are. Those decision makers are usually pretty sheltered people and they spend their money that way to live in a cocoon. They need to know they are out of touch and putting their employees into questionable circumstances they themselves would never accept. After all, they got out of that neighborhood - or even a better one - to get where they are now.

And keep looking for another job. If the position has higher turnover because they refuse to accept the inherent issues of employment at that location, you helped document it. It's exactly why I worked a transfer out of where I had been stuck for 4 1/2 years - systemic problems management has refused to address, and the revolving door keeps spinning. I wasn't going to make it get better, so I exercised the American solution we all see and know can be made. I moved.

You are never stuck. You can move. What too many do is rationalize a job salary as being too good to give up. If it is - goes to accepting the risk of working there.

No gun? Look into alternative methods of defense. Likely taught by some LEO's and even sponsored as a course by the PD. It's not all about pulling a gun out and shooting someone as a universal solution.
 
The OP specifically asked about carrying where the employee handbook says it is prohibited.

The prohibition may not have the force of law, but she can still lose her job by violating employee rules. I would consider that to be much more of a problem than being just asked to leave.
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This is where I'm at. One needs to do what they feel they need to do to stay safe, but at the risk of loosing ones job, I'd be the last to recommend breaking employer rules. I'd be interested in knowing whether the OP could carry Mace or another SD spray. Most employers do not restrict the use of Hornet Spray, and it works just as well as Mace, except it generally comes in larger cans and not easily concealed. But if it's just to get one from the curb to inside, ease of concealment may not be that important.
 
Depends a lot on your location. We're prohibited from carrying into medical facilities in South Carolina. Your state may prohibit your facilities or may make it illegal if your employer does not give you permission. Some states, such as Florida, do not legally allow companies to fire a CWP holder who keeps their firearm secured in a vehicle while at work.

Assuming law doesn't prohibit it, what you're looking at is a challenge of competing risks. Do you feel you're more likely to need to defend yourself, or more likely to get caught and fired? Which negative outcome is less acceptable to you?

You may find that you can more easily get away with bringing a decent sized can of OC spray or a collapsible baton. Please, do not use hornet spray as suggested. High concentration OC spray such as Fox Labs will work fine
 
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