Carrying 1911 in condition 2

Interesting thread. I have a quick question for the 1911 gurus so to speak that could be related. When the "series 80" platforms came out from Colt, weren't those designed to prevent a possible discharge if the Condition 1 series 70 was dropped?

As I recall reading at the time (this was before the internet in the 80s if my memory serves), the chances of an discharge were highly unlikely but it COULD happen and there were cases of where it did happen, hence the change to the firing pin block.

My question is really two questions: First, are my recollections accurate? Does a condition 1 series 70 have a chance to discharge when dropped?

Second, not being a 1911 guy (I only have one, a Colt series 70 actually), do all the 'modern' 1911 platforms have the firing pin block that was implemented in the series 80?

I guess a last question would be, if someone was carrying Condition 2 with a Series 70, are the risks the same of a discharge when dropped due to the inertial firing pin?

Again, please forgive my ignorance on 1911s :)
 
The pre-series 80 Colts could THEORETICALLY discharge if dropped straight onto the muzzle on a hard surface. The risk is so small that it took 70 years to discover and duplicate in a laboratory.

Something hitting the hammer in condition 2 can not cause a discharge.

Something pulling the hammer back from condition 2-far enough to not engage the half cock notch and releasing it could cause a discharge.

Dropping the gun with the hammer at half-cock could discharge.

Dropping the pre-80s series gun in condition one could cause a discharge, but it's unlikely.
 
The pre-series 80 Colts could THEORETICALLY discharge if dropped straight onto the muzzle on a hard surface. The risk is so small that it took 70 years to discover and duplicate in a laboratory.
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Ruger put a titanium firing pin in the SR1911 for this reason. It is a series 70.
Titanium is light weight such that under it's own weight, a drop likely won't be enough to cause a discharge
 
My experience with 1911 type pistols is consistent with what WVsig indicates. I was in Armor during Vietnam, and issued a 1911A1 pistol. The pistol was to be carried hammer down on an empty chamber. I'd not read much of Col. Cooper's stuff at that time, and don't honestly recall if I ever thought about carrying cocked and locked. I thought I was quite the maverick carrying my gun hammer down on a loaded chamber. I later competed with, and carried a 1911 type pistol for years in LE, and would never have considered carrying in condition 2. But in Vietnam, I didn't know any better, and thought I've have a better chance getting the gun into action in condition 2, than trying to cycle the slide to chamber a round. I now realize that there was probably a good chance I'd have fumbled cocking the hammer in a sudden violent situation, as I was not carrying a SAA, and am not Bob Munden.

I see a far amount of stuff posted favoring the Israeli method of carry. Can't deny the carrying part is certainly safe. I get it. But getting the gun into action, under stress, in a sudden violent situation, may have problems. I can say from personal experience that in a sudden, violent, close range shooting situation, one may not have both hands free to rack the slide to bring the gun into action. One's "weak hand" may be otherwise occupied. I guess Israeli commandos have this all figured out, but I suspect most of us were never Israeli commandos. I know I wasn't.
 
Drop test results from Drakes Gun Works:

http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/drop1.htm

A video from the now, gone, Drakes Gun Works web page

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_QkWEiX2eE


Some posts worth looking at here:

drop-testing 1911's

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=23791

With the primers he used, Drake was able to make a 45 ACP M1911 fire 1 out of six times, dropping the pistol from 4 feet on concrete, with a steel firing pin. The free floating firing pin of the series 70 1911 is able to rebound freely off the primer. Given that primer lots have to meet "None fire" (lowest ignition energy) and "all fire", (100% ignition energy) levels, it makes sense that given a combination of sufficient firing pin weight and low enough primer sensitivity, then it is just a matter of developing sufficient firing pin kinetic energy to set off a primer. The varying sensitivity of primers is reflected in the 1 out of 6 ignition rate. At the five foot height, the kinetic rebound energy is sufficient for a 3 out of 3 ignition rate, if dropped on concrete.

Dropping the pistol, muzzle down, on carpet, it takes more drop height. If the pistol was dropped on bubble wrap, well, probably more height.

This has to be a major reason why service pistols begin to acquire firing pin blocks. The first I am aware of, because I own a couple, is the Pistol 38

bnbJM8r.jpg


I don't know how the Germans carried the thing, but it is the earliest double action pistol I have, and from what I can tell, you put a round in the chamber, push down on the safety to decock, and you can carry it that way, but you have to push the safety up before the firing pin unlocks. So, I expect, Germans probably carried the thing with a round in the chamber, hammer down, and safety up. That way they could fire the first round by simply pulling the trigger.

This was carried over to later pistols, with the exception, the decocker was kept, but the safety was eliminated.

Jj9WXfy.jpg


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The designers also eliminated the grip safety, which is probably an improvement. If you hold the M1911 "funny", the grip safety will prevent the 1911 from firing.


I think it boils down to folks being used to DA/SA revolvers or semi-auto pistols where the hammer is only cocked when they are actually shooting. And designed to be carried with the hammer down and a round chambered....Like the crappy Beretta M9 I carried in the Military.

So it takes some getting used to seeing.
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I don't disagree.


If you are uncomfortable with a single action semi-auto being carried cocked and locked (Condition 1), carry a different platform such as a SA/DA pistol or striker fired semi-auto.
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Nothing wrong here, just that I don't feel uncomfortable carrying a 1911 condition 2, round in chamber hammer down, and I don't care for striker fired semi auto's, especially the ones that are "half cocked". I want to see the hammer, I want to be able to cock the hammer, if need be, and I don't feel comfortable with an ignition system "half armed". It will be interesting to know just how much force it takes for a striker mechanism to over ride the sear and ignite the primer in front of the firing pin.
 
The problem with a titanium firing pin in a 1911 is that while it is unlikely to fire when dropped, it won't always fire when the trigger is pulled, either. Not in every gun or many guns, but every once in a while the stars line up against you.
 
If the 1913 manual said to carry Condition 2, they had changed their mind by 1940.
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Yupe they had changed their minds.

This is what upcoming Major General J.S Hatcher says in his "Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers", in 1935.

"There are two other ways in which the automatic can be carried loaded. One way is with the hammer cocked and the safety on. This is the present regulation way of carrying the pistol in the Army. It has the advantage of avoiding the danger incident to lowering the hammer on a live cartridge, but also has the disadvantage that there is some chance of the safety working into the "off" position through motion of the gun in the holster, especially on horseback. The gun can, if desired, be carried with the hammer at half-cock; but this offers no advantage over carrying the hammer all the way down and is not as safe in case the gun is dropped, as a very sharp blow might conceivably break off the half cock notch and discharge the gun.

It may be noted here that the gun is constructed so that it is possible to lower the hammer on a loaded cartridge to the half-cock notch with one hand. Many people do not know that this can be done, because it seems that with the finger on the trigger and the thumb on the hammer spur the grip safety will prevent the trigger from being pulled. However, if the hammer is pulled all the way back, the bottom the the hammer spur will strike on the rearward projection of the grip safety and release it, and if the trigger is then held back the hammer can be lowered. This should never be done, however, without pointing the gun in a safe direction, for if the thumb should slip from the hammer at this time, the gun will be discharged. It is better to use two hands, unless the left hand is engaged, as in hold the reins while on horseback. It is the danger of accidental discharge when thus lowering the hammer with one hand while on horseback that caused the Army to change the regulations some years ago so as to require the automatic to be carried with the hammer cocked and the safety on"

By the way, the US Army carried the horse cavalry all the way up to WW2. They carried the 1911, the 03 Springfield, and conducted practice with the M1913 Patton saber! You can see news reel film of US Cavalry, with drawn sabers, dispersing the Bonus Marchers on the Capital Mall.

Now, decades after Jeff Cooper and the Leatherslap era, the M1911 of today has been radically changed with beavertails, which make it just about impossible to cock a 1911 with the hammer down, with a round in the chamber, and so discarding one mode of carry. If you are going to carry a M1911 cocked and locked, you better make sure that your safety is a stiff one, or you will be carrying your 1911 cocked and not locked.
 
Nothing wrong here, just that I don't feel uncomfortable carrying a 1911 condition 2, round in chamber hammer down, and I don't care for striker fired semi auto's, especially the ones that are "half cocked". I want to see the hammer, I want to be able to cock the hammer, if need be, and I don't feel comfortable with an ignition system "half armed". It will be interesting to know just how much force it takes for a striker mechanism to over ride the sear and ignite the primer in front of the firing pin.
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Carry it the way you feel comfortable, you are the one carrying it.
 
The safety being disengaged while it's in the holster is not an issue: the trigger is still covered.

The safety being engaged when shooting is a training issue... your thumb rides the safety. Period.


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Sometimes they are "On" when you expect them to be "Off", and sometimes they are "Off", when you expect them to be "On". And that is the greatest concern I have about carrying a M1911 cocked and locked. It might just be, cocked.
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And of course, there is that thing called a grip safety that backs-up the thumb safety.
 
My first 1911 was a Colt Combat Commander bought it in the 70's read an article even if dropped with a round in the chamber with the hammer down the firing pin spring would prevent the pin from hitting the primer. When I would lower the hammer I would pull the trigger to release the hammer and remove the pressure off the trigger wile lowering the hammer. I want to be more on the safe side as apposed to shoot as fast as I could but still having a chance to fire. I have changed from condition 2 to 3. Saying that there have been times I carried in condition 1 .

What's the saying " Plan For Peace, Prepare For War " I guess that is condition 1 . I would like to know what holster condition 1 carriers use . You know we're I'm going with this , this post may never end.
 
cw308 said:
My first 1911 was a Colt Combat Commander bought it in the 70's read an article even if dropped with a round in the chamber with the hammer down the firing pin spring would prevent the pin from hitting the primer. When I would lower the hammer I would pull the trigger to release the hammer and remove the pressure off the trigger wile lowering the hammer. I want to be more on the safe side as apposed to shoot as fast as I could but still having a chance to fire. I have changed from condition 2 to 3. Saying that there have been times I carried in condition 1 .

What's the saying " Plan For Peace, Prepare For War " I guess that is condition 1 . I would like to know what holster condition 1 carriers use . You know we're I'm going with this , this post may never end.
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Milt Sparks VM2. I also carry a BHP, Sphinx SDP & Sig P228 in one.

Versa-Max-2.jpg
 
Stats Shooter said:
But to your point, I think the exposed hammer bothers folks. A series 80 1911 in the cocked and locked position literally has THREE mechanical safety devices preventing an accidental or negligent discharge: The grip safety, the thumb safety, and the firing-pin-block safety. Thats more than any other pistol I know.
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As someone who has been shooting the 1911 for a bit over 50 years, I have to disagree. First, the only accidental discharge the Series 80 firing pin safety can prevent is a drop fire. Second, not even the combination of all three safeties can prevent a negligent discharge because, by definition, a negligent discharge is the result of someone doing something stupid -- that usually involves pulling the trigger, which bypasses all safeties.
 
Koda94 said:
Technically Glocks are not cocked, they are really a Double Action design...
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I don't believe even Glock calls their action a double action. There was debate about what they were when the first Glocks began appearing in practical shooting competition, and my recollection is that Glock called it "safe action." Since that's a term Glock invented, they got to define it. I think it basically means "That's the way our guns work."
 
I carry condition 1. If you do search, you might find the thread in which I advocated condition 2 .... I was schooled.
 
Rock185 said:
I see a far amount of stuff posted favoring the Israeli method of carry. Can't deny the carrying part is certainly safe. I get it. But getting the gun into action, under stress, in a sudden violent situation, may have problems.
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I have seen several different reasons cited as the justification for Israeli draw. The one that struck me as making the most sense is that members of the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) special ops teams might transition to any of a number of different handgun platforms, each with the controls located in various locations and each having a different manual of arms. Under stress, we react as we're trained -- when you don't have time to think, your muscles do what they've been doing every day in training.

So if you train with a Glock but you're carrying a 1911 or a Hi-Power in condition one when the balloon goes up, your muscle memory won't include the act of releasing a thumb safety as you draw and present the pistol. Training so that you always rack the slide makes for a consistent manual of arms to get the gun in action, regardless of what safety devices may or may not be present and how they might be arranged.
 
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