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Carrying 1911 in condition 2
- Thread starter Stats Shooter
- Start date
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I was referring to the general tendency of discussing the various conditons of carrying a 1911 and expanding on it. It is clear that Condition 1 or 0 (even) is the way a competent gun user would carry the gun.
Would you want a thumb safety on an eight pound trigger 1911?
Would you want a thumb safety on an eight pound trigger 1911?
I tried uploading pages from my 1913 Small Arms Manual. This is as early as I have found to bolster my claims of "original" intent on the carry of the M1911 pistol. Firstly was the directions on how to load, which was to rack the slide and put the safety on. Then, if you were going to holster the pistol, you took the safety lock off and lowered the hammer. Then you put it in your flap holster.
MG Hatcher knew Mr. John Browning, and in his book "Text Book of Pistols and Revolvers" claimed the safest way to carry a M1911 was with a round in the chamber and the hammer down.
There are some differences between the military, and the quick draw McGraw expectations of civilians. We have been taught, through tens of thousands of hours of watching movies and TV shows, the "Big Man" concept of history. We expect the Big Man, standing alone, against the evil hordes, to overcome them with his lighting fast reactions, and quick reloads. Anyone remember the Walk and Draw era where everyone knew that the man who cleared leather first always won the gun fight? I still see this in modern Western Movies. The good guy, the bad, guy, walk down the middle of the street, and the first one to clear leather always wins. Self defense classes and self defense "games" reinforce this. One of the bad tactics taught is running through a room of armed men in an attempt to clear them all before the timer goes off. That is incidentally, a great way to get killed.
I talked to a Veteran of Iraqi/Afghanistan about his experiences reloading his M4, and whether he could quickly reload, and the guy said "you don't understand, I have 16 other men in my squad". He was right, I did not understand. While he is removing his magazine, he has 16 guys around him, almost all of them with fully loaded weapons, and they are going to eliminate any threat to a member of the squad, without having to be asked!
I did not ask, but I assume instead of running through a room of armed men, he would have tossed a grenade or two in that room. Or maybe, stood back and shot an AT-4 from 100 yards away and let that rattle the rafters. And in a worse case scenario, called in the friendly skies. I think they still use Napalm, don't they? Ever heard the joke "What comes out of a forest fire?" "Crispy critters!"
Anyway, when the M1911 was the service pistol, you loaded it as you were told, you carried it as you were told, and once you got into combat, you were not going to walk down the middle of anything and try to out draw someone in a classic Western style gunfight.
And I don't trust the M1911 safety, and I sure don't trust the extended and ambi safeties out there to be "On", when I expect them to be "On", nor do I trust them to be "Off" when I expect them to be "Off". Sometimes they are "On" when you expect them to be "Off", and sometimes they are "Off", when you expect them to be "On". And that is the greatest concern I have about carrying a M1911 cocked and locked. It might just be, cocked.
MG Hatcher knew Mr. John Browning, and in his book "Text Book of Pistols and Revolvers" claimed the safest way to carry a M1911 was with a round in the chamber and the hammer down.
There are some differences between the military, and the quick draw McGraw expectations of civilians. We have been taught, through tens of thousands of hours of watching movies and TV shows, the "Big Man" concept of history. We expect the Big Man, standing alone, against the evil hordes, to overcome them with his lighting fast reactions, and quick reloads. Anyone remember the Walk and Draw era where everyone knew that the man who cleared leather first always won the gun fight? I still see this in modern Western Movies. The good guy, the bad, guy, walk down the middle of the street, and the first one to clear leather always wins. Self defense classes and self defense "games" reinforce this. One of the bad tactics taught is running through a room of armed men in an attempt to clear them all before the timer goes off. That is incidentally, a great way to get killed.
I talked to a Veteran of Iraqi/Afghanistan about his experiences reloading his M4, and whether he could quickly reload, and the guy said "you don't understand, I have 16 other men in my squad". He was right, I did not understand. While he is removing his magazine, he has 16 guys around him, almost all of them with fully loaded weapons, and they are going to eliminate any threat to a member of the squad, without having to be asked!
I did not ask, but I assume instead of running through a room of armed men, he would have tossed a grenade or two in that room. Or maybe, stood back and shot an AT-4 from 100 yards away and let that rattle the rafters. And in a worse case scenario, called in the friendly skies. I think they still use Napalm, don't they? Ever heard the joke "What comes out of a forest fire?" "Crispy critters!"
Anyway, when the M1911 was the service pistol, you loaded it as you were told, you carried it as you were told, and once you got into combat, you were not going to walk down the middle of anything and try to out draw someone in a classic Western style gunfight.
And I don't trust the M1911 safety, and I sure don't trust the extended and ambi safeties out there to be "On", when I expect them to be "On", nor do I trust them to be "Off" when I expect them to be "Off". Sometimes they are "On" when you expect them to be "Off", and sometimes they are "Off", when you expect them to be "On". And that is the greatest concern I have about carrying a M1911 cocked and locked. It might just be, cocked.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
The U.S. Ordnance Department did. If I remember correctly, the standard for the mil-spec trigger was 5-1/2 to 6-1/2 pounds. Not exactly a hair trigger, but the cavalry wanted a thumb safety so that a cocked ready pistol held by a mounted horseman could be made safe with one hand until such time as he could free up both hands to return the pistol to what we today refer to as Condition 3.Glenn E. Meyer said:Would you want a thumb safety on an eight pound trigger 1911?
That's why the thumb safety is there. Browning's 1910 prototype didn't have a thumb safety.
Am not sure what the point of that post was. The Army manual from 1913 has ZERO relevance to the modern 1911 and the concealed carry defensive pistol environment most of us work in. What a Vet did in combat does not really apply because as you alluded to the pistol is a secondary at best at worst a weapon of last resort. What the 1911 did or did not do as a service pistol is not relevant to this discussion. IMHO. If you can't tell when your safety is on or off you are better off carrying a different platform.I tried uploading pages from my 1913 Small Arms Manual. This is as early as I have found to bolster my claims of "original" intent on the carry of the M1911 pistol. Firstly was the directions on how to load, which was to rack the slide and put the safety on. Then, if you were going to holster the pistol, you took the safety lock off and lowered the hammer. Then you put it in your flap holster.
MG Hatcher knew Mr. John Browning, and in his book "Text Book of Pistols and Revolvers" claimed the safest way to carry a M1911 was with a round in the chamber and the hammer down.
There are some differences between the military, and the quick draw McGraw expectations of civilians. We have been taught, through tens of thousands of hours of watching movies and TV shows, the "Big Man" concept of history. We expect the Big Man, standing alone, against the evil hordes, to overcome them with his lighting fast reactions, and quick reloads. Anyone remember the Walk and Draw era where everyone knew that the man who cleared leather first always won the gun fight? I still see this in modern Western Movies. The good guy, the bad, guy, walk down the middle of the street, and the first one to clear leather always wins. Self defense classes and self defense "games" reinforce this. One of the bad tactics taught is running through a room of armed men in an attempt to clear them all before the timer goes off. That is incidentally, a great way to get killed.
I talked to a Veteran of Iraqi/Afghanistan about his experiences reloading his M4, and whether he could quickly reload, and the guy said "you don't understand, I have 16 other men in my squad". He was right, I did not understand. While he is removing his magazine, he has 16 guys around him, almost all of them with fully loaded weapons, and they are going to eliminate any threat to a member of the squad, without having to be asked!
I did not ask, but I assume instead of running through a room of armed men, he would have tossed a grenade or two in that room. Or maybe, stood back and shot an AT-4 from 100 yards away and let that rattle the rafters. And in a worse case scenario, called in the friendly skies. I think they still use Napalm, don't they? Ever heard the joke "What comes out of a forest fire?" "Crispy critters!"
Anyway, when the M1911 was the service pistol, you loaded it as you were told, you carried it as you were told, and once you got into combat, you were not going to walk down the middle of anything and try to out draw someone in a classic Western style gunfight.
And I don't trust the M1911 safety, and I sure don't trust the extended and ambi safeties out there to be "On", when I expect them to be "On", nor do I trust them to be "Off" when I expect them to be "Off". Sometimes they are "On" when you expect them to be "Off", and sometimes they are "Off", when you expect them to be "On". And that is the greatest concern I have about carrying a M1911 cocked and locked. It might just be, cocked.
Your hyperbole is amusing. No one is stating that one should be a western style quick draw artist. What people are saying is that the real world scenario where a civilian will use a gun in self defense are under the following criteria.
1. They occur in low or no light conditions
2. Usually in a 1-10 yard distance
3. Typically face 1-3 bad guys
4. Number of shots fired
a. Shooting (only one person firing a gun) 1-3 shots
b. Gunfight (people shooting back at you) you shoot until your gun is empty.
70% of gun usages are shootings not gunfights.
Also a large % of shootings are done with strong hand only while point shooting. Most people are startled and do not get their strong hand on the gun or their sights aligned with their eyes on the target. They draw strong handed and point shoot because the attacker is already on them.
The biggest take away from this for this discussion is low light and 1-10 yards. The tueller drill time and time again tells us that when we know a treat is imminent we only have 1-2 seconds to draw and fire a gun. When we do not know a threat is imminent we have less time.
It is not that people want to be trick draw artists it is that in the "Real world" you if you have to use your gun it will most likely be in a low light condition, you will be startled and or surprised and you will have 1-2 seconds to draw and engage because you attacker will be within 10 yards of you. Your ad hominem about "big men" has no baring on the discussion. We aren't talking about movies we are talking about the "real world".
Please explain to me how the Army field manual of 1913 is relevant to this scenario.
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Some people carry BHPs. LOLI was referring to the general tendency of discussing the various conditons of carrying a 1911 and expanding on it. It is clear that Condition 1 or 0 (even) is the way a competent gun user would carry the gun.
Would you want a thumb safety on an eight pound trigger 1911?
Self defense classes and self defense "games" reinforce this. One of the bad tactics taught is running through a room of armed men in an attempt to clear them all before the timer goes off. That is incidentally, a great way to get killed.
I haven't taken a self defense course yet that has taught me to run through a room of armed men. Competition and self defense can have some overlap, but it's often a lot less than people credit. For that matter, a competition that encourages the behavior you mention would be idiotic. Speed does matter whether you like it or not. Assuming you'll have the time and/or dexterity to thumb cock a pistol in a close encounter is foolhardy, imo.
As for the random aside about combat versus not, you seem to contradict yourself. You use the Army manual from 1913 as a baseline, but then proceed to point out, correctly, that combat and self defense are very different tasks most of the time. I don't have a squad or a platoon to cover me and I'm not on a base surrounded by armed guards. More importantly, there is no wire or frontline where I know the enemy to be. There is far less redundancy in my system than in a military unit and to an extent much more uncertainty, and those are some reasons why time is essential.
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Bill DeShivs
New member
The manuals were brought up because someone said the 1911 was designed to be carried in Condition 1. It was not. Threads drift.
I said that condition 2 can be as-or almost as fast as Condition 2. And it is-if you train that way. Decocking a 1911 is easy and safe.
There is nothing wrong with carrying in Condition one (or condition 2.)
I said that condition 2 can be as-or almost as fast as Condition 2. And it is-if you train that way. Decocking a 1911 is easy and safe.
There is nothing wrong with carrying in Condition one (or condition 2.)
JoeSixpack
New member
Kinda surprised the manual would want you to carry hammer down on a live round didn't the original design lack a firing pin block? wouldn't a sharp blow to the hammer cause the firing pin to strike and ignite the primer?
Bill DeShivs
New member
No, it will not. The firing pin is an inertial type.
Jim Watson
New member
If the 1913 manual said to carry Condition 2, they had changed their mind by 1940.
On the range, do not load the pistol with a cartridge in the chamber until immediate use is anticipated. If there is any delay, lock the pistol and only unlock it while extending the arm to fire. Do not lower the hammer on a loaded cartridge; the pistol is much safer cocked and locked. j. In reducing a jam first remove the magazine. k. To remove a cartridge not fired first remove the magazine and then extract the cartridge from the chamber by drawing back the slide. l. In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not fore- seen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use of the pistol is probable, It should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand. In campaign, extra maga- zines should be carried fully loaded.
My first boss (and his boss, too) were Navy veterans. He kept his copy of the Bluejacket's Manual. It had a chapter on the sidearm. I particularly remember the recommendation that if action was anticipated, you should draw the pistol, load the chamber, engage the safety, and place the pistol ready to hand on the parapet or musette bag. No fast draw for them.
If the other conditions of readiness are so darned good, why do I not see IDPA or USPSA competitors employing the Israeli technique or the Condition 2 start? I watched one guy thumb cock his Sig Sauer but that was because he was not confident in getting a first round hit in DA/SA crunch -tick mode.
On the range, do not load the pistol with a cartridge in the chamber until immediate use is anticipated. If there is any delay, lock the pistol and only unlock it while extending the arm to fire. Do not lower the hammer on a loaded cartridge; the pistol is much safer cocked and locked. j. In reducing a jam first remove the magazine. k. To remove a cartridge not fired first remove the magazine and then extract the cartridge from the chamber by drawing back the slide. l. In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not fore- seen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use of the pistol is probable, It should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand. In campaign, extra maga- zines should be carried fully loaded.
My first boss (and his boss, too) were Navy veterans. He kept his copy of the Bluejacket's Manual. It had a chapter on the sidearm. I particularly remember the recommendation that if action was anticipated, you should draw the pistol, load the chamber, engage the safety, and place the pistol ready to hand on the parapet or musette bag. No fast draw for them.
If the other conditions of readiness are so darned good, why do I not see IDPA or USPSA competitors employing the Israeli technique or the Condition 2 start? I watched one guy thumb cock his Sig Sauer but that was because he was not confident in getting a first round hit in DA/SA crunch -tick mode.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Not possible.JoeSixPack said:Kinda surprised the manual would want you to carry hammer down on a live round didn't the original design lack a firing pin block? wouldn't a sharp blow to the hammer cause the firing pin to strike and ignite the primer?
Correct.Bill DeShivs said:No, it will not. The firing pin is an inertial type.
I do find it somewhat ironic that we discuss at such length the 1911 and cocked and locked when nearly every other firearm in the world that has a hammer and a safety is carried in a "cocked and locked" condition and no one says much about it.
Of course, with many designs you can't easily see if the gun is cocked. So, out of sight, out of mind it appears.
Of course, with many designs you can't easily see if the gun is cocked. So, out of sight, out of mind it appears.
Stats Shooter
New member
I do find it somewhat ironic that we discuss at such length the 1911 and cocked and locked when nearly every other firearm in the world that has a hammer and a safety is carried in a "cocked and locked" condition and no one says much about it.
Of course, with many designs you can't easily see if the gun is cocked. So, out of sight, out of mind it appears.
I think thats part of it 44 AMP.
Again I am the OP on this thread, and Im not advocating a method of carry for this platform, just discussing it. I had read several places that condition 3 was ok (not optimal) but condition 2 was somehow less safe or something.
But to your point, I think the exposed hammer bothers folks. A series 80 1911 in the cocked and locked position literally has THREE mechanical safety devices preventing an accidental or negligent discharge: The grip safety, the thumb safety, and the firing-pin-block safety. Thats more than any other pistol I know.
Both of my 1911's are series 70's so they do not have the fining-pin-block safeties. But 2 is enough.
I think it boils down to folks being used to DA/SA revolvers or semi-auto pistols where the hammer is only cocked when they are actually shooting. And designed to be carried with the hammer down and a round chambered....Like the crappy Beretta M9 I carried in the Military.
So it takes some getting used to seeing.
But others have made the best point I think, which puts this conversation to bed.
If you are uncomfortable with a single action semi-auto being carried cocked and locked (Condition 1), carry a different platform such as a SA/DA pistol or striker fired semi-auto.
Jim Watson
New member
I do find it somewhat ironic that we discuss at such length the 1911 and cocked and locked when nearly every other firearm in the world that has a hammer and a safety is carried in a "cocked and locked" condition and no one says much about it.
Of course, with many designs you can't easily see if the gun is cocked. So, out of sight, out of mind it appears.
Really? We have actual US Army manuals, but I have not seen anything on sidearm doctrine from the many countries using Brownings. Or Lugers.
I do find it somewhat ironic that we discuss at such length the 1911 and cocked and locked when nearly every other firearm in the world that has a hammer and a safety is carried in a "cocked and locked" condition and no one says much about it.
I guess that's basically true now, but before the onslaught of striker fired polymer pistols, a large percentage of the handguns carried by LE and military were either a DA revolver, or some form of de-cocked DA autoloader which typically was incapable of being "cocked and locked".
If I were to carry a 1911, I would probably carry it in condition 3. I might consider carrying a series 80 in condition 1. But my first choice would likely be to carry something that isn't carried cocked.
I understand the designs and arguments for carrying various handguns cocked and locked, as well as partially cocked and locked or not locked (striker fired with various safeties) . Most of them simply aren't for me. However, I won't argue another's choice (unless it's simply reckless).
Technically Glocks are not cocked, they are really a Double Action design... But IMO I dont think of them as a true DA, but as a 'striker' action (although that wouldnt apply to all striker fired guns....) where its about as close to a single action feel as you can get.
I do find it ironic than some feel uncomfortable with a 1911 carried in condition 1 but are fine with a loaded Glock, that little trigger dongle is one of the most widely misunderstood safety devices and only there if the gun is dropped it was never intended to replace a thumb safety. Glock users are virtually carrying "cocked and unlocked", condition 0....
I do find it ironic than some feel uncomfortable with a 1911 carried in condition 1 but are fine with a loaded Glock, that little trigger dongle is one of the most widely misunderstood safety devices and only there if the gun is dropped it was never intended to replace a thumb safety. Glock users are virtually carrying "cocked and unlocked", condition 0....
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Actually Glocks, and most striker action autoloaders, are partially cocked. As normally carried the striker spring in under some portion of full tension. When the trigger is pressed the additional tension is added to the striker spring and then the sear is tripped releasing the fully tensed striker.Koda94 said:Technically Glocks are not cocked,...
The reason that the trigger pull on most striker action pistols is lighter and shorter than normal double action autoloaders is that the striker is under partial tension when carried so the trigger doesn't have to do all the work. That's also why striker action guns don't usually have restrike capability (I. e., the striker can't be cocked and released on a misfire by just pulling the trigger. The action must be worked to reset the striker.)
Jim Watson
New member
S&W advertising sold a lot of police departments the Plastic M&P on the basis that it was a partially cocked striker action like a Glock. Actually, the M&P cams the striker back very little, I think my CZ75 had more hammer movement. And an "action job" removes that little bit. Or it did on mine.
The XD is fully cocked, which why it has a grip safety and still didn't get any agency business.
I haven't looked closely at the other current brands of striker fired plastic pistols.
But second strike striker fired guns are very thin on the ground. Mr Browning gave it no consideration from 1899 on.
There was a Taurus with SA-DA operation. It was meant to be carried cocked but would restrike with a DA-like pull. Must have dodgy ammo in Brazil.
I read that the Walther P99 AS has second strike capability, but that gun just confuses me with its variety of conditions of readiness.
The XD is fully cocked, which why it has a grip safety and still didn't get any agency business.
I haven't looked closely at the other current brands of striker fired plastic pistols.
But second strike striker fired guns are very thin on the ground. Mr Browning gave it no consideration from 1899 on.
There was a Taurus with SA-DA operation. It was meant to be carried cocked but would restrike with a DA-like pull. Must have dodgy ammo in Brazil.
I read that the Walther P99 AS has second strike capability, but that gun just confuses me with its variety of conditions of readiness.