Carrying 1911 in condition 2

You need to run some Tueller Drills. 1.5 seconds is all it takes to close a 7 yard gap. I doubt you are going to be able to draw/retrieve the gun and rack a slide, present it a fire in 1.5 seconds. I don't care how you train. I do not believe that I am the one who is relying on their imagination in this conversation.
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If practiced, the Israeli draw from condition 3 is nearly as fast as condition 1. And, with an Israeli draw style need not worry about the thumb safety. You are racking as you raise the gun. If practiced, it can be very fast. Also, in condition two, you could train to sweep the hammer rather than sweep the safety.

My only concern is that modern 1911 hammers do not have a big enough spur, like my revolvers, to easily do it every single time.

Like I said, I will carry it condition 1, I just think with proper practice and training, condition 2 would be fine also.
 
What ever way you are comfortable that's fine . Don't want to get into a pissing contest here just what works for me.

Chris
 
The original had a longer hammer spur
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The original M1911 had a short, wide hammer spur. The army decided they wanted a hammer that was easier to thumb cock, so the spur was lengthened about three-sixteenths, creating the condition known as hammer bite in the process.
 
I went to the local Cabelas in Dec and saw these RIA GI pistols on sale for $399 so I had to play with the display model. The thing was tight and the trigger was good. It took several more days to talk myself into buying it, plus I had a $100 gift card, but I did. Cabelas let me pick the best out of three, the one I picked was amazingly tight, no play between slide and frame, barrel hood tight, barrel bushing to barrel tight. I wish the barrel bushing was a tighter fit in the slide but, my Les Baer was $1000 more, so, I can't complain. The trigger is short, like the original, and that is what I want. I have short stubby fingers and I replaced most of the long triggers on the 1911's I own.

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The tiny original front sights don't bother me too much, I won't be target shooting with this thing. This is a point and shoot combat gun.

I was looking for a thumb cocking M1911. I want to carry my M1911 with a round in the chamber and the hammer down. This was the way the pistol was designed, this was how it was carried, round in the chamber, hammer down, in the flap holster. I do not like that thumb safety. Too many times with extended safeties and ambidextrous safeties I have found the safety "off" when I thought it was on, and, worse of all, firing my Les Baer, the safety bumped to "On". I watched one of those Top Gun shows and that happened to a Delta Force/Cop/Competitor types. He accidentally bumped the safety on and it took time for him to puzzle out what was going on. A Bullseye bud of mine, has seen this a number of times at the indoor range he manages. Accidental discharges caused the Army to change the condition of carry from round in the chamber, hammer down, to round in the chamber, safety on, pistol in flap holster. There were still too many accidental discharges and you find that the SOP by the time you get to Vietnam was that you were not allowed to put a magazine in your M1911 until your boots were on the ground in the drop zone! I put my middle finger between the hammer and slide when lowering the hammer. I put my index finger on the hammer spur and my middle finger in front of the hammer. I jam the hammer with my middle finger and pull the trigger. I slide the middle finger out, like a wedge, lowering the hammer, at some point the middle finger is completely out and I use my index finger to lower the hammer all down. I do not use my thumb to lower the hammer because I have had the hammer slip off the thumb.

What I do is similar to what this guy is doing, except I place the middle finger of the left hand between the hammer and frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-URBrinve3A


Anyway, the early 1911 configuration, which was before this 1911A1 version, had wide hammer spurs and a virtually non existent grip safety tang. The pistol was designed to be thumb cocked and those features made it real easy, like Colt SAA easy, to thumb cock a first generation 1911. After WW1, the grip safety was elongated and the spurs disappeared, but still, the 1911A1 version is a lot easier to thumb cock than this, with its beavertail, and I don't cut my fingers on the Bomar style rear sight.


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When I first took my RIA to the range it would eject the magazines. The magazine release was too shallow, I called RIA, they sent me a replacement, it works fine. I have about 400 rounds of hardball and 200 LSWC through the thing and it feeds, goes bang, shoots to the point of aim.


It is being carried in the holster, round in the chamber, hammer down, strap over the hammer. If I need it, I have to pull it out and thumb cock it before firing. That is not a problem for me. I practiced a lot of thumb cocking with my SAA, and I think I can remember to do it in a stress full situation. You know, if you could reload the SAA quickly, it would make a very compact, powerful, self defense pistol. I consider the 45 L Colt an even better round than the 45 ACP.

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The US Army, particularly the horse Cavalry were familiar with thumb cocking their Colt SAA's, and did not consider it dangerous. The horse Cavalry wanted a safety so they could make the pistol safe if the horse got uncontrollable, and a safety that could be applied "On" or "Off" with only one hand. But, since the Leatherslap days of the 1950's, American's have gotten used to carrying these pistols cocked and locked, and that is something I don't feel safe around.
 
Stats Shooter said:
If practiced, the Israeli draw from condition 3 is nearly as fast as condition 1. And, with an Israeli draw style need not worry about the thumb safety. You are racking as you raise the gun. If practiced, it can be very fast. Also, in condition two, you could train to sweep the hammer rather than sweep the safety.

My only concern is that modern 1911 hammers do not have a big enough spur, like my revolvers, to easily do it every single time.

Like I said, I will carry it condition 1, I just think with proper practice and training, condition 2 would be fine also.
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Show me a modern defensive pistol trainer who favors the 1911 platform that recommends using something other than condition 1. I am interested who besides people on forums are advocating this form of carry. Isrealis don't carry 1911s. LOL

Larry Vickers? Ken Hackathorn? Gunsite? Thunder Ranch? Bill Wilson?
 
I use to carry condition 2 and felt good about it. I now carry condition 1. My 1911 is IWB and the holster protects the safety so I don't worry about it being bumped off safe.

We should all carry in the condition we feel comfortable with.
When I first started to carry I did not put a round in the chamber my Glock. As I grew accustom to carrying and thought about how the gun it only made sense carry with one in the chamber. With the 1911 there are two safeties the must be disengaged to fire. I feel safe with the design. Just think about the mechanics of your firearm and see how it works and I would bet one in the chamber will make sense.
 
Get to know your gun internally.. You'll see pretty much any handgun built in the last 30-40 years are extremely safe from a handling point.. except for the rare mechanical failure guns (particularly handguns) do not just go off assuming you didn't just stuff it in your waist band like an idiot.

I carry my hi-point c9 with 1 in the pipe and let me tell you I carry that when I'm doing dirty jobs and it gets beat to hell.

Im not trying to push anyone outside their comfort zone, do what works for you.. but what I am saying is get to know your gun better and you'll probably trust it enough to carry in a more ready condition.
 
The Israeli method of carry is a leftover from carrying pistols without firing pin blocks. It's outdated and unnecessary in the majority of cases. As for, "It's almost as fast", how close is almost? 1.5 seconds is almost as fast as 1 second, but I can tell you in watching people draw it seems a lot longer when a person has a 0.5 second head start. It also makes the assumption that you always have two hands for the pistol, or at the least easy access to a surface you can use to rack the pistol.
 
Why does everyone frown on carrying in condition 2?
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Short answer, because it gets you nothing in the way of additional safety with the gun, and "slows down" your ability to shoot.

And welcome to the internet where a lot of folks will tell you that if you don't carry the way they recommend, you're going to DIE!!!! :eek::rolleyes:

Carry your gun any dang way you feel comfortable with. If it causes an ND (and what AD isn't actually an ND??) write us and tell us what happened, and why. IF you get in a gunfight, and your chosen manner of carry results in you being hurt, write us, and tell us why.

If your chosen manner of carry gets you killed ...walk it off...then write us and tell us why. :rolleyes::D

I suggest that you ignore the military's rules of carry when it comes to your personal safety. Pointing out what the Army (or any branch) did in the beginning, and what they do now, is interesting history, but its a red herring argument when it comes to how one should carry one's personal pistol.

The reasons for this are glaringly obvious, but somehow always seem to get overlooked when someone advocates for the military rules of carry being the right, (and the only right) way to carry.

I'll hit the high points, for those who haven't thought about them...

#1) The military does not put as high a priority on your personal safety as you or I do.

#2) Military carry rules are intended and developed to give the greatest "protection" to the military as a whole, NOT the individual soldier.

#3) Personal self defense and combat are NOT the same thing. There are some points in common, but they are not the same thing.

#4) Today's attitudes about what is, and isn't safe are different from the past, and different from what the military considers most important.

The rub comes in because there is no "clear and authoritative" set of rules. Different organizations have different rules. The designer's intent is a moot point.

First off, because no one has ever found any written instructions for how JM Browning intended the pistol to be operated. We can only infer what he intended, and from his pre-1911 prototypes, he didn't think the thumb safety was needed. And, it doesn't matter, anyway, because while Browning was a genius designer, he wasn't what today is called "an operator". In other words, he wasn't a soldier who would be using the gun in combat, so his perspective on what was needed and useful was different.

It was the Cavalry that insisted on the thumb safety (known then as the safety lock), and yes, the concern was controlling the pistol and an unruly horse. Specifically mentioned was the risk of a discharge when re-holstering the cocked pistol. The grip safety provided no protection for that.

The 1911 was new tech, and high tech for the time when it was introduced, and for some time afterwards. It's been reported that George S. Patton had an ND/AD with a 1911 in the early days, and went back to and stuck with his revolvers afterwards.

Remember that the Army is not dealing with one trained, competent person, they are dealing with thousands (tens of thousands or more during war) of barely trained young men who often lack adult supervision (NCO and up...), and sometimes even that supervision is inadequate.

Military service, war, combat, has often been described as 99% boredom, 1% terror (or 95/5 or something similar). The point is that when bored, young men find ways to amuse themselves, and that includes playing with their weapons. This is the reason the Army went to the chamber empty at all times (except in actual combat) rule. NOT for the safety of the soldier carrying the pistol, for the safety of the Army as a whole, to reduce the numbers of AD/ND incidents.

People stress on how lowering the hammer by hand cannot be safely done. Those of us with decades of experience and practice feel differently about ourselves. And, I think, with good reason. However, when you are talking about large numbers of people, its pretty much a given that somebody in that group will screw up.

There is no "idiot proof" pistol. There cannot be.
 
If you train for Condition 2, it's perfectly safe. Cocking the hammer is easily done as you draw.
The 1911 wasn't "designed" to be carried in condition 1, BTW. It was designed to be carried condition 2.
 
chaim said:
Apparently Condition 2 is how the military first required soldiers to carry the 1911. However, the original design and today's designs are different.
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The most recent Army field manual for the M1911A1 still calls for "usually" keeping the pistol in Condition 2. But it also says that "when action is imminent" to cock it and set the safety.

Military use is different from civilian concealed carry. In the military, when you are on a post you are surrounded by other people who have guns, and you don't expect to be attacked at any instant. (Granted, that's perhaps not a safe assumption in Afghanistan, where every so-called "friendly" may be a one-man sleeper cell, but the M1911A1 field manual was written before we went into Afghanistan.) The whole point of civilian concealed carry is that we don't know when "action is imminent," so we have to assume that it's always imminent. Muggers don't call ahead to make appointments.

That's why we carry in Condition 1. And I don't view that as inconsistent with the military usage.

That said, if I really really didn't want to carry in Condition 1, I would carry in Condition 3. That way I don't risk losing control of the hammer trying to lower it "safely" on a live round, and IMHO Israeli draw is as fast as trying to thumb cock the hammer, and much more reliable.
 
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But in my video games it sounds SUPER cool when I press X to activate super slow mode and then press Y to draw my gun from its holster and everything goes like really quiet in the game so you can hear every little detail as the gun comes out and the slide gets racked and then its BOOOOM BOOOOM BOOOOM BOOOM BOOOM BOOOOM BOOOOM BOOOOM and since its still in slow mode the muzzle blasts are all like fire-y and explode-y and then I get the achievement "Be a super bad**s". :eek:

OK, maybe that was a little too much tongue in cheek here, but the point is, I am not a weapons expert trained in Israeli carry methods. I highly doubt any of us are. And if there happens to be one or two, thats amazing and awesome. But its not worth the risk to me to carry a 1911 without a round in the chamber. Life isnt like the video games or movies. The gunfight you find yourself in will be over before you know it and if you are wasting your time racking the slide before you can level it against your attacker, there is a very good chance that you will find yourself laying on the ground leaking fluids.
 
I think someone carrying should carry in the condition they are comfortable having the gun and the train for using it from that condition.
 
hdwhit said:
I think someone carrying should carry in the condition they are comfortable having the gun and the train for using it from that condition.
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So if I am comfortable with it I should carry a Sig P226 in SA with no safety riding in the my pants in the small of my back? Sorry there are right ways and wrong ways to carry a pistol. Some are down right dangerous like my absurd example above others are just not very smart.

If you are not carrying a 1911 cocked and locked throwing or using it as a club against your oncoming attacker should be part of your training because if you ever need it there is a good chance you will not be at the ready in time. The do what your a comfortable stance is a cop out. IMHO
 
The earliest Army manuals that I have been able to find have specified when the 1911 was to be carried in Condition 3, and when in Condition 1.

They have all said that the gun was not to be carried with the hammer down with a round in the chamber.
 
Condition 1 ...is how a 1911 should be carried.../ condition 2 with a round under the hammer has some inherent issues that I don't like.

( I carry in condition 1, train in condition 1....).
 
Jeff Cooper's opinion was that if you follow the 4 rules of firearm safety a mechanical safety is superfluous and unnecessary even in Condition 1. IF none of the rules are violated then he was correct.

But in the world of "big ifs" this has to be the biggest :)...he didn't actually recommend a 1911 without a thumb safety catch. Just trying to emphasize a point.
 
Endless debate. It's all trigger pull and your finger.

A cocked 1911, safety off
A Glock
A Revolver

What is the difference? Trigger pull and your finger.

BTW, all have generated NDs when the finger is on the trigger.

So these threads are a yawn except for historical information about gun design and the cavalry.

They are like the endless I can't shoot a Glock because of the grip angle. Now who's fault is that. If you can't shoot a 1911 or a Glock decently - look the mirror. If you can't handle your gun safely - look in the mirror.

I can shoot either decently and carry the Glock or the 1911 in Condition 1 and feel just as safe with either guns and with a modicum of accuracy. I even shoot a SW Model 19 decently.
 
Someone commented that it's easy to cock on the draw, and I found a video of a guy doing so, but couldn't really tell WHEN he was cocking?
Is it done when the gun is in the holster, before the hand closes on the butt of the gun?
I've tried to cock a hammer after grasping the gun, and while it's possible with a spur hammer and G.I. grip safety, it's all but impossible with a rowel hammer and beavertail, and certainly not possible in either case with the gun held in a "firing grip", which is the first step in a conventional draw.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
Endless debate. It's all trigger pull and your finger.

A cocked 1911, safety off
A Glock
A Revolver

What is the difference? Trigger pull and your finger.

BTW, all have generated NDs when the finger is on the trigger.

So these threads are a yawn except for historical information about gun design and the cavalry.

They are like the endless I can't shoot a Glock because of the grip angle. Now who's fault is that. If you can't shoot a 1911 or a Glock decently - look the mirror. If you can't handle your gun safely - look in the mirror.

I can shoot either decently and carry the Glock or the 1911 in Condition 1 and feel just as safe with either guns and with a modicum of accuracy. I even shoot a SW Model 19 decently.
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Sorry but IMHO that is completely missing the point. The OP is advocating a carry of condition that is not optimal for the platform he has chosen to discuss. Others have point out why that is the case. He and others who are advocating for another condition besides Condition 1 cannot offer anything beyond "its almost as fast", "the Israelis do it", "carry what you are comfortable with" or they want to quote an irrelevant manual that does not really apply to modern civilian handgun shooting in a self defense situation.

Lots of things happen to go right for you in a self defense situation for you to the to the point where you get to pull the trigger. A highly respected trainer once told me don't train stupid stuff. KH used a different S word but I think you get the point. I personally think it applies to the OP. Don't train and don't advocate for stupid STUFF.
 
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