Carbine, it’s ammo, What do you have, use, and Why...

FN Herstal PS90.

5.7x28

Why? "Smiles everyone, smiles... I am your host - welcome to Fantasy Island"

Spendy gun, spendy ammo, but you can't put a price on the fun factor. I have yet to meet anyone who isn't completely thrilled to shoot it.

(oh by the way - it was a 'happy father's day' present to myself :D )
 
Carbine

Does the carbine have to be a semi-auto (referring to the OP here)?
I have three "carbines" - one is an original 1873 Trapdoor cavalry carbine that is a marvelous shooter.
A number of years ago, I acquired a WWII M1 Carbine....marvelous little gun. And about 20 years ago, I bought a Rossi lever action carbine chambered in .357 Magnum, 16.5" barrel. It, too, is a marvelous little gun, quite accurate and reliable; it's a good "walk-in-the-woods" gun.
Pete
 
How about a SIG 716 in .308??? ;)


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Maybe this will make things easier...

Lever actions are a no go for me. albeit I'm sure if things were otherwise they'd be a top contender.

Nice pics... but probably not a Sig for me.


As I feel I'll be definitely going to a 16 - 17 in barrel... which calibers suffer some ballistic loss at that length barrel, and what twist (s) could as well, impede their ballistics?

I'm figuring on these rounds... 5.56; .40; .45; 7.62; and 9mm, pretty much in that order of preff.

THANKS
 
It sounds to me like you should really go with the AR.

You can order a fully built AR from Palmetto State Armory for less than $600 - built to fire 5.56/.223. After that you can order upper assemblies to shoot 9mm, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 7.62x39, .450BM and .50Beowulf. I know there are also other cartridges I failed to list. These just happen to be the ones that come to mind right away.

One lower - multiple uppers (each with their own optic of course) and you end up with one rifle that you can load out to shoot various cartridges per your desired use.

Be careful though - while the original lower receiver itself isn't particularly expensive (between $100 to $250) the addiction that comes with it can become a rather heavy burden on your checking account.
 
pAlmetto Armory?

Hansom says:

“Be careful though - while the original lower receiver itself isn't particularly expensive (between $100 to $250) the addiction that comes with it can become a rather heavy burden on your checking account.”


I don’t really get what you mean here…. Would you mind elaborating on that bit?

That seems like a really, really good idea. Palmetto Armory? I’ll definitely look into that ASAP.

I’m assuming when you say “lower asembly” you mean the elevator, and trigger mechanisms, right? I’d think something in the middle of that arena ought to be just fine for me. I don’t see me getting too trick with this weapon… smooth, and accurate. Fun to play with and functionally reliable if push comes to shove.

I’m also assuming this is a gas operated approach. Hopefully it is.

Many Thanks as usual. You’re a big help with your experience and knowledg
 
Just for grins,,,

I did a Google search for the definition of the term Carbine,,,
As I expected there doesn't seem to be an overarching standard,,,
Unless you accept the one common thread that a Carbine is always shorter than a rifle.

I remember one old geezer who told me that a carbine was a rifle that used ammo originally designed for a handgun.

I do accept that the term will have a specific meaning to a particular manufacturer,,,
Hence the detailed definitions for Winchester Carbines vs Winchester Rifles.

But in general trying to define the word in absolute terms,,,
Is like trying to lasso smoke. ;)

Fun topic though,,,

Aarond

http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/tech/glossary.htm
Carbine: (n.) 1. A short rifle, generally one with a barrel 22 inches in length or shorter. 2. Also used to refer specifically to the U.S. Carbine, Caliber .30 M1, which was adopted by the U.S. military in 1941, and which saw extensive use in World War 2, the Korean War, and Vietnam. Note that the M1 Carbine is not a carbine version of the M1 Garand; they are entirely different designs using different ammunition.

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm
Carbine - A general term referring to relatively short-barreled, quick-handling rifle, often intended for use on horseback. In Winchester lever-action terminology, a carbine has a single barrel band. In German, a Stutzen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_firearms_terms
carbine: 1. A shortened version of a service rifle, often chambered in a less potent cartridge. The M4 Carbine is an example which uses the same cartridge but a shorter barrel, whereas the M1 Carbine is an example using a different cartridge. 2. A shortened version of the infantryman's musket or rifle suited for use by cavalry.

http://homestudy.ihea.com/glossary_fa.htm
Carbine: A light short-barreled riffle.

http://www.boomershoot.org/general/gundict.htm
A short, lightweight rifle with a barrel that usually measures less than 22". In German, Karabiner means carbine.

http://www.saami.org/glossary/display.cfm?letter=C
A rifle of relatively short length and light weight originally designed for mounted troops.

.
 
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Blindjim,

The AR is built on two separate receivers. There is the lower receiver (the only part of the gun that is serial numbered and registered) which houses the fire control group (trigger, safety, sear, hammer etc.), bolt catch and mag catch/release as well as the pistol grip and stock. Then there is the upper receiver which supports the barrel, forearm guard, gas tube and block, charging handle and bolt carrier group (as well as rails for optics etc.)

The lower receiver can be purchased stripped (just the receiver and no other parts) for as low as $35 (I've seen them that low at gun shows) but can sometimes run upwards of a couple hundred dollars. However you should be able to find completely assembled lowers (as in ready for use) for around $150 if you look around - Palmetto State Armory had some for lower than that at one point.

Once you have that you can slap on just about any caliber upper receiver you want so long as both receivers are up to mil-spec. That's where the addiction becomes reality. Personally I started on the AR path a couple years ago and now I can't stop building more of them. I have uppers in all the calibers I've mentioned before and am now thinking about what other calibers I can build uppers for. Add into that the cost of all the ammunition you'll be shooting and it can become quite costly. I figure I spend in excess of $10k a year just on my shooting hobby. Luckily for me I have another hobby that makes enough money for me to support my shooting addiction.

I'm sure there are others on this forum that are more knowledgeable about this particular platform than I am. If I've missed anything they'll fill in (I hope).

Welcome to the addiction that is AR ownership.:cool:
 
I thought that might be it... making more and more with this trick or that deally...

Again, I appreciate the clarification on which part does/has what in it. Very good.

I watched a You tube video this morning on the Palmetto AR... The fella doing it compared and showed the quality of the PA vs the Spike items... lettering, materials, etc. Choosing Spike as the superior build quality product overall... and giving PA a 'C' for their efforts..

he too, indicates he has several other 'builds' of AR's.

Spike's cheapest ready rolled piece is almost $900 too.

it's interesting for sure and loooks like fun though I'mn not so sure I'd opt for the DIY 100% versions... bolting together this or that larger items I can do... the meticulous tiny bits escape my abilities.

Again, does anyone have insight of which calibers might be deliteriously affected if shot in a 16 in barrel? ie., 5.56; 40 SW; 45ACP; 7.62, OR 9MM?

pERSONALLY, i'D SAY NOPE... BUT MAYBE THE 40 OR 45 MIGHT SUFFER SOME FROM PERFORMING EXQUISITLY YET STILL, THEY SHOULD BE PROPELLED OUT MORE QUICKLY THAN FROM A PISTOL BARRLE!

tHANKS.
 
I just went to Palmetto State Armory's website and priced out a complete rifle. Here are the webpages:

Complete Lower:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...complete-psa-ar-15-lower-classic-edition.html

Complete Upper:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...6/psa-16-223-wylde-stainless-steel-upper.html

Total price before shipping, FFL and tax: $696.94

All YOU have to do after you order and pick it up from your FFL is put the two pieces together (all done by way of 2 sliding tensioned pins) and you're ready to roll (well once you mount a scope/optic). No meticulous little things to be done.

Or you could order this from your local Wal-Mart:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Bushmaster-M4A3-.223-REM-16-Patrol-Carbine/19235996

Supposed to be priced around $600 before tax and FFL. Then you're ready to roll too (no need to mount an optic).

As for the cartridges you mentioned - they'll ALL perform better being fired from a 16" barrel vs. being fired from a 5" or shorter barrel in pistol platform. There is more muzzle velocity to be gained and as such more energy is imparted on the bullet before it leaves the barrel. This means the bullets have a flatter trajectory out of a 16" barrel vs. out of a 5" or less pistol barrel and will hit harder further out as well.

Consider the different platforms you can fire them out of - the 5.56/.223 can be fired out of a single shot handgun (typically with an 8" or longer barrel) and suffers from loss of velocity and energy compared to a 16" barrel.

The 9mm and .40sw can be found shot out of the a few different kinds of carbines - Kel tec, Hi-Point and Beretta to name a few brands. They both gain muzzle velocity and energy when fired from a carbine with a 16" barrel vs. a pistol.

The .45acp can be seen being fired from something more ubiquitous - the Thompsons Submachine Gun - aka the Tommy. Again from its longer barrel (16" for civilians) the .45acp gains more muzzle velocity and energy - making it an extremely potent defensive round - this vs. the 5" barrel of another icon the 1911.
 
Super

Hi Hansam
Thanks so very much for the thoughtful input and links.

I suppose those folks reacquire or refill their inventories often as so many choices for uppers there were OOS when I looked last night at that site..

Gee, Wally world too! Wow.

There sure is a lot to think about in so far as to which way I’d go. Caliber. Style. DIY. Premier brand or value brand. Etc.

Gas operated is a definite. M4 or M16, either works for me.

I have a hard time getting past that Hi point price however. AND without some ultra good (powered) optics, any gun I bought would be a door stop for me. So that price must be included. Me and open sights are not the fast friends we once were. In fact on my FNH FNP 45T, I can’t even see the Triticon Glow In the dark combat night sights …. but my next door neighbor can. I did while taking a photo with a flash unit… briefly.

That’s funny too, I saw the HK sights akin to mine glow in the store’s showroom in a well lit condition.

Can’t see Red on dark/black backgrounds AT ALL. Gotta be green or lighter colored.

Short to medium range I think a LASER will work. Again, my next door neighbor walked over a green LASER last night around tem or so, he had it on several of his AR builds and one shotgun. NC Star… green LASER.. ONE cr123.

I could see it/him from almost 100ft away. I could actually see the length of the beam itself for most of its span, end to end! With but a slight wiggling movement I could spot it out to 80ft. or better. Holding it in my hands popping it on here and there. I was duly impressed. Especially given all LASERs have an output regulated by law…. So all should be about the same brightness. Albeit some may use a lens which makes the diode’s beam appear larger I did lose it when in an area lit by my exterior area lighting.

This one had a barrel about the size of a quarter and about 4 in long. Yet it’s beam seemed pencil lead thin or thinner and it’s dot was not tiny as so many have led me to believe they are.

$75 or so 7 years ago. Suited for a rifle or shotgun… and still working great!

Better eyes I’m sure would see that beam much farther than can I.

So an adjustable (for W&E) LASER TOO must be added into the total pitcher. So another $100 +, likely $200 + these days.

Surefire’s x400 is due out late this year with a Green LASER light option in addition to it’s current RED one.

…and after last night in the yard, NC Star has to be put on the radar.

You are absolutely correct in that the shooting sports building guns, buying guns, etc. can evolve into an addiction…. Albeit from what I know of life thus far, ANY THING can wind up that way for those people who are so predisposed. I’m forced financially to remain in the ‘needs based camp’ near totally. I currently have the (IMHO) THE ‘NECESSITIES. Mossberg 930 SPX, FNP 45T, and Ruger KP345’, with a Leeder 200 lumen display light on the pick rail atop the SPX, and a TLR 1 on my 45T…. both of which exceed my expectations and requirements for light and direction.

So this itch to acquire yet one more medium range weapon ie., carbine is one in which I can take some time to accomplish. For sheer needs? Hi Point all the way. To satisfy my itch, your ideas herein are right on track… even that Bushmaster pick seems spot on for the likes of me, save for it’s 556/223 chambering.

The caliber and it’s cost, matters most now. Re-thinking the 556/223? With uppers going for around $400 ea., I’d have to opt for just one. One with speed, penetration and punch, so likely I’d opt a step above those. 9mm or 45ACP most probably, with 9mm having the edge sheerly for cost of operation. Hell, it might become a simple coin toss amongst them as to which way I’d go. : - ))

This will happen. I assure you all. When and what I don’t know.

Mr. H, I’m in your debt.. and will keep all posted on my outcome.

I gotta go find a LASER! Two in fact. One long and one short in green. Or powered (LED) halo sights with dots other than RED!
 
Blindjim,

You are correct that the 9mm is less costly than .223/5.56 or 45acp. However if you're looking for speed, penetration and punch I strongly advise the .223/5.56 over 9mm and .45acp. The .223/5.56 easily outclasses the both of those rounds if all three are shot out of a 16" barrel when it comes to speed, penetration AND punch.

Regarding cost the cost of .223 isn't horribly expensive compared to .45acp and even compared to 9mm. If you are purchasing .223 ammo you can find it in bulk for only a little more than 9mm. If you aren't purchasing in bulk you can go to a Fleet Farm, Farm and Fleet, Cabelas, Scheels etc. and find .223 for around $30/100rds. Sure you can get 9mm for around $25/100rds but its only $5 difference and you get a lot more bang for you buck with .223. If you start reloading the cost differences between the two cartridges becomes moot.

Now let's talk about optics. I'm personally not a fan of lasers. For me its one of three sight choices - irons, scopes or red/green dots. If you are having trouble seeing irons then I'd go with either a magnified scope (for longer ranges) or a red/green dot sight for shooting out to 200yds. The reason I don't like lasers is simply that they tend to be lost during daylight and in well lit conditions. A scope with a lit reticle can be used all times of day and a red/green dot sight can be used all times of day as well. Personally I prefer the red/green dot sight for close range use as well as for plinking.

In the red/greed dot area I'd recommend spending the money and getting an Aimpoint Pro or an Eotech sight but they're pricey and not in the range of most casual shooters. That being the case one can pick up a cheap red/green dot sight from various sources for around $100. I have found Tru-Glo sights to be quite reliable even after thousands of rounds and abuse (I have these red/green dot sights on my loaner guns). I have one Tru-Glo red/green dot sight that's been put on four different guns and has functioned fine for 4 years and over 5,000 rounds. Now I'm considering replacing it simply because there's better models available now. Are they going to hold up to the Aimpoint and Eotechs that sell for as much as 6 times the Tru-Glos? Absolutely not however they are sufficient for a casual shooter. If you're going to go out and put hundreds and hundreds of rounds downrange - thousands and thousands of rounds a year - then go for the more expensive Aimpoints and Eotechs because they'll hold up to all of that better than the cheaper stuff. Otherwise there's no need to spend so much money on sights.

From what you're saying I'd say get yourself an entry level AR in .223/5.56 and pick up a Tru-Glo red/green dot sight then save up for an Aimpoint Pro (personally my favorite) sight later. For basic varminting, HD, plinking and just playing around the base AR carbine in .223/5.56 with the Tru-Glo red/green dot sight would suit you just fine.
 
One of the best deals in carbines today is the AK based Saiga.
Get one in 5.45 and stock up on the cheap spam cans of military surplus ammo.
You could have the carbine and a lot of ammo for what a mini14 or AR would cost.
 
The .223/5.56 easily outclasses the both of those rounds if all three are shot out of a 16" barrel when it comes to speed, penetration AND punch.
Click to expand...

I'll differ on this view a little. There's no doubt that a .223 will send a bullet down range at a faster velocity but penetration and punch can be very subjective. So much of penetration depends on the bullet and as for punch I'll use an example, the a .357M vs. the .45acp. Both are considered near the top in SD handgun stopping power. One is fast and lighter, one is slow and heavier. I think the same principles apply to a .223 vs. handgun cartridges when fired out of a carbine. I can tell you this I'll take the punch of a .357 carbine over that of a .223. Does the 9mm also falls into that category? I really don't know. But I do know that you ain't gonna live or die on the difference and both have plus' and minus'. Even in carbines they aren't really comparable or a least it very hard to compare them.

LK
 
Hmmm.

Again... words fail me .... thanks.

Apparently, my gun blaster friend has his ballistics backwards. he told me the 556 wouldn't penetrate drywall, doors, light to medioum stuff, etc. saying instead the 9mm would, as the 556 breaks up on initial impact on hard surfaces. It made sense to me at the time too. There ain't much metal flying along in that small a round. although mighty tuff on people I'm sure.

So there's that... I'll take your input over his howeever. Hmmm.

Green has to be the sight thing for me... RED becomes invisible on anything other than very light surfaces. Whites, yellows, sky blue... and then it has to be in a scope, around the size of a BB at lest.

LED Halo's might work. I'd sure prefer a scope and a LED light on a rifle to get out there and touch with some reach... but my thinking is most often social work is going to be well inside of 100M. Well, inside.

Again, I'll take your input as always with the greatest of interest and look into those units you mentioned. We'll, see... or not. and the seeing bit for me is a really tricky thing. I'm leaglly blind. scattered field of vision and around 20/900 acuity. It do suck, trust me.

I used to shoot twigs off brances at 50 70ft with open sights. Shot matches. it's painful to recall it. BUT I will endeavor to persevere! There's more than one way to yada ydada yada.

Thanks.
 
Staying within pistol calibers you could go for the Beretta Storm carbine. I believe they offer it in 9mm and 40s&w. Never shot one of those myself but from what I've heard they're great little guns.
Click to expand...
Or just buy the Hi-Point 9mm and rip it out of the stock in favor of an ATI stock, and have pretty much the same thing, some say even better, a lot cheaper. I still may do that, but the original stock has to go before I even fire that first round.:o
 
I consider my Ruger Ranch Rifle in .223/5.56 a Carbine,and it is awesome.and it sells for $670 !
Click to expand...

An entry level AR can be had for around $670 as well and magazines will be far more easily procured for less money. There are also a larger variety of mods for an AR and there is a larger basis for available parts in case you would need to replace anything (I've worn out fire control groups, 1 barrel and fudged numerous hammer springs (and sears as well as hammers) trying to alter trigger group for a cleaner and lighter trigger.

Here's some information (not a lot of math or science - just shooting at walls) regarding penetration of various service caliber rounds including 5.56/.223:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

Really if you're talking about FMJ ammo the .223 will out penetrate both 9mm and .45acp.

Green is easier for the human eye to see than red so its normal for you to see green better. That said ANY laser available to civilians will get lost in sunlight. I haven't found a laser yet that can be seen in direct sunlight. However you CAN see a holographic sight even in bright sunlight. Either that or a scope with a barrel/front guard mounted flashlight would be sufficient too.
 
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