Father Time
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I hope this is only a bad joke.:barf:
Carbine for Home Defense
- Thread starter microman
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I hope this is only a bad joke.:barf:
I bought a CX4 with the though that it would be a nice home defense weapon and not that it will happen in this life time but would be good for forced entry or CQB. I bought the rails, tactical grip, sling, red dot scope and all the usual goodies one might want. I even upgraded the plastic rocoil rod to a steel one.
The end result on the range was well, disappointing.... I know 45 acp isnt meant for long distance engagements but the drop is so considerable at 50 yards that its been religated to plinking.
It is a capable weapon for CQB so long as theres no intermediate ranges involved at any point, its a joy to shoot and very accurate... If I knew back then what I know now I would have bought a 308 carbine...
The CX4 will stay in my inventory but only because of its round compatability with my 45s. None of it is really any fault of the weapon, its a function of a very heavy pistol round and even +P ammo only helps marginally.
The end result on the range was well, disappointing.... I know 45 acp isnt meant for long distance engagements but the drop is so considerable at 50 yards that its been religated to plinking.
It is a capable weapon for CQB so long as theres no intermediate ranges involved at any point, its a joy to shoot and very accurate... If I knew back then what I know now I would have bought a 308 carbine...
The CX4 will stay in my inventory but only because of its round compatability with my 45s. None of it is really any fault of the weapon, its a function of a very heavy pistol round and even +P ammo only helps marginally.
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.45 ACP is a terrible round to use in a carbine, but even so, when zeroed at 25 yards POI should only be 1-2 inches below POA at 50 yards with most ammo. It does drop pretty sharply beyond that though and could be hitting a foot low or more at 100 yards, and three feet down at 150.
Of course for home defense use, the trajectory past 50 yards probably isn't important.
speedyjerry
Moderator
Thats why I said Define "Home Defense" for your particular situation and location.
The part you conveniently left out.
Okay I got it, an M-60 machine gun is the best.
The part you conveniently left out.
Okay I got it, an M-60 machine gun is the best.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Do you train with either? Sorry to bring that up. 
Anyone that knows me knows I am armed. They'd be pretty brave to try that alone with any expectation of success. A hoard of mongels stand a better chance. My shooting lanes are hallways and stairwells where they would become stacked. It was no chore to verify these alignments offer no danger to the neighbors. The more penetration the better.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Snub357 said:
Firearms are lethal force. Using a firearm means that you have a reasonable fear of an immediate threat of death or serious injury. If you have that kind of threat, inside your house with your family, do you want to shoot at it with something that won't penetrate 1" of powdered gypsum backed by paper?
And for what it is worth, ammunition selection is critical in either a shotgun or rifle if you are concerned with limiting penetration. A 40gr .223 at high velocity will penetrate much less than #1 buck from a 12ga.
speedyjerry
Moderator
Some may beg to differ with that statement, each home defense situation is unique to itself, there is no correct cartridge or weapon fits all answer.
Living on an acre alone in the country allows one to use Claymore Mines, high power rifles and Set Traps, living in an apartment building with family and neighbors nearby brings many more concerns to the available options.
Being engaged in a shootout with bad guys and using maximum deadly force is different than typical Home Defense situations.
Will an intruder be armed wearing body armor rendering handguns less desireable for Self Defense?
Will the intruder be the neighbors kid looking for prescription drugs to steal?
Will it be one of your own kids stealing your stuff for dope money?
Would you shoot someone in the back running away?
I keep both a M-4 carbine and Mossberg 500 by or on the headboard on the bed an have 2 pistols one is a Bursa Thunder9Pro U/C and a 1911A1. i don't feel out gunned by whatever should try and get to me in the house, i have 3 30 round mags clipped together in the M-4 one has 55gr. one has 62gr. and one has DRT 79gr frangible.
mapsjanhere
New member
PS90 with a 50 round magazine, enough for suppressive fire while I get the kids out of the house.
speedyjerry
Moderator
I would like to see where this originated from if it's possible, did Guns&Ammo do an article or something? What was the range, material of said experiment?
The problem with most "off the shelf" pistol cartridge carbines is that the barrels are unnecessarily long. Got to be legal. If you cut those barrels back, then you really have something which is useful. If you are going to use a 16" barrel, you might as well move up to a more powerful cartridge.
In my case, I've got a pistol AR-15 with a 9" barrel. Right now it is still a pistol but that's going to change. Get the paperwork turned in and wait a few months and then it will be a SBR. An AR with a sliding stock and a 9" barrel in .357 SIG that takes Glock mags. I've got a Glock 35 with a Jarvis .357 SIG barrel that uses the same mags. So as a combination inside a building or in a vehicle, it's a sweet deal. .357 SIG is great out of the 5.1" barrel of the Glock but even better out of a 9" barrel with a FS on the end.
Anybody could take that gun down a hallway without length problems. Power is absolutely no problem. It will penetrate just about any vest. We live on 90 acres so it is also nice to be able to engage at some distance outside or against people who are shooting from cover behind a truck they used to break through my driveway gate. Standard G31 mags are 15 rounds or 17 with a +2. And now Glock is making a 22 round mag which can be used with a +2. One in the chamber, that's 25 rounds of .357 Magnum power with virtually no recoil (gas operated, not blowback), excellent accuracy, and additional mags can be right at hand. As well as a pistol that takes the same mags!
Gregg
I have an M4 patrolmans carbine chambered for .223/5.56. It's relatively light and far more stable than a handgun, especially in suituations of high stress. The barrel is short enough to make it manageable in a close combat situation. I think that's the primary reason why police and soldiers prefer the M4 in urban warfare. Heck, I can even mount a bayonet on the front sight.
I have 30 rounds in the mag, so I can quickly put enough of them in the BG's body to make it really hard to continue with an attack. The psychological effect of seeing and hearing the carbine rip loose should be enough to make his BG buddies run for their lives. That is, if they are not drugged up out of their minds. In that case, I probably have enough rounds left in the mag to neutralize them too.
Before I put it into HD service, I want to get a decent quad rail handguard, weapons light, and laser sight. Saving up my pennies for that.
I have 30 rounds in the mag, so I can quickly put enough of them in the BG's body to make it really hard to continue with an attack. The psychological effect of seeing and hearing the carbine rip loose should be enough to make his BG buddies run for their lives. That is, if they are not drugged up out of their minds. In that case, I probably have enough rounds left in the mag to neutralize them too.
Before I put it into HD service, I want to get a decent quad rail handguard, weapons light, and laser sight. Saving up my pennies for that.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
In the standard FBI tests using ballistics gel, a 40gr HP (Federal 223D) at 3,270fps penetrates 5.75" in bare gel and 7.25" after passing through wallboard.
Hornady's .223 40gr TAP Urban at 3,350fps from a 16" barrel penetrates 6" of bare gel at 30'.
By contrast, 12ga Winchester 3" Magnum #1 unplated buckshot had an average penetration depth of 7.7" through heavy clothing with the deepest pellet penetrating 11" of gel. Through drywall, the same load had an average penetration of 11.8" of gel, with the deepest pellet penetrating to 14.4".
So people who are going to differ with that statement are either going to be nitpicking specific aspects (type of bullet, velocity, repeatability, etc.) of a general premise that is true overall or they are ignorant.
speedyjerry
Moderator
Interesting experiment, nothing matches the devestation of a 3 or 3 1/2" magnum buckshot at close range, no argument there. They hit the target with so much force they create a vacuum and totally instantly destroy the integrity of anything it hits. Like a hand grenade.
A good comparison is dropping a cement block into a swimming pool compared to a single bb
A single buckshot would probably be much less affective.
But none of this has anything to do with Home Defense now does it.
A good comparison is dropping a cement block into a swimming pool compared to a single bb
A single buckshot would probably be much less affective.
But none of this has anything to do with Home Defense now does it.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
speedyjerry said:
Does it suck up all that pet hair too? Because that would definitely push me towards the shotgun.
speedyjerry
Moderator
Shotgun is like a revolver, first round birdshot to blind and disable an attacker, after that the possibilitys for destruction are endless.
Just the sound of ejecting a round with any pump shotgun speaks all languages with never saying a word.
Just the sound of ejecting a round with any pump shotgun speaks all languages with never saying a word.
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