Capital Punishment for the Innocent

The issue will continue to run in circles.

The reason is because some of us attempt to apply archaic beliefs to current situations.

This is the issue, innocent people have been killed by a flawed system.
If we apply the same rules to the government for killing in cold blood, the government would of been in jail.

Since we can't put our entire legal system in jail, the flawed system should be abolished.

If we can't punish the system that wrongfully punishes, it should be put aside.
 
The "Crazy and Ridiculous 52% Illinois Figure"

The poster who called me "that anti-capital guy" and how ridiculous that figure of mine -- and of the government of Illinois and of numerous press organizations and of organiztions that collect data on Capital Punishment -- of the 52% of Illinois D Row inmates found innocent is:
Well, first, me as the "anticapital guy": An age-old technique if you don't like the message is to denigrate, or classify the messenger as "one of those". "Kill the messenger" Well, you don't know anything about me except I point out frequent innocents on death row, finally exonerated by dint of their mental acuity, the press exposure of their cases, which thereby attracts at times very sharp legal representation. And the corollary: that that is only some of these prisoners, the others that are too nuts, too retarded, without press interest, and having a court appointed attorney way out of his element or not having more than rote interest, those get executed and fade into oblivion. That's the message. The messenger isn't important - even if you knew anything about him.

Now the great 52% mystery: there are 13 prisoners on D Row found innocent and 12 that are executed. So, what percentage is each of those numbers of the total number of D Row prisoners (25) since a certain historical date? Well,
13 is 52% of 25. Divide 13 by 25 and BINGO: it's .52 or 52%!. Divide the other group, the executed: 12 in number, by the total 25 and BINGO: it's .48 or 48%. Add 52% and 48% and you get: 100% Bingo, you have accounted for all the 25 total prisoners. If you'd like to check, (for example the 52%), multiply 25 by .52 and BINGO!: you get 13!
So, 13 - the number of D Row prisoners determined innocent - is 52% of the total number of 25. And, since they were mistakenly - (or sometimes intentionally) - convicted and condemned wrongly and in error: 52% is the error rate.

What's "crazy and ridiculous" isn't that the figures are false, but that they're true. And no one in their right mind would continue killing people with that error rate: soooooo, Illinois didn't, and has decared a moratorium on executions that has continued for 7+ years.
 
gvf, First of all when I referred to the "anti capital guy" I was not referring to you (I would have had enough respect to refer to you by your handle), I was referring to (and I quoted) the guy in the CNN article you provided, 'Bill Ryan, chairman of the Illinois Moratorium Project' who was described in the article as 'Death penalty opponents'.

As for the numbers. I know that 13 of 25 is 52%. Am I alone or do others feel that the number is a complete fabrication when used as an "error rate"? An error rate would necessarily have to include all those convicted and sentenced to death not just those who were executed and those exonerated. I tried to locate the number of people sentenced to death in IL between 1977 and 2000 to no avail, maybe someone here can locate that number and provide a link. If 100 people were sentenced to death during the 24 year period sited and 13 were exonerated the percentage would be 13%. Is this figure not good enough or shocking enough for them? I maintain that the correlation between those executed and those released is really completely irrelevant unless you are trying to make the problem look worse than it really is.
 
The issue will continue to run in circles.

The reason is because some of us attempt to apply archaic beliefs to current situations.

This is the issue, innocent people have been killed by a flawed system.
If we apply the same rules to the government for killing in cold blood, the government would of been in jail.

Since we can't put our entire legal system in jail, the flawed system should be abolished.

If we can't punish the system that wrongfully punishes, it should be put aside.
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Your right! How silly we are to debate a topic that has such a simple answer. :rolleyes:

Kidding aside, I think this has been a very dispassionate debate of a very impassioned topic. It has been remarkable in its lack of dogmatic appeal to religion. If anything, the futility of using the Bible to claim the moral high ground was clearly illustrated by others. I think applesanity addressed that particular issue directly. There have been many valid points and reasoned arguments presented that certainly question the wisdom of capital punishment. I even learned how to spell it correctly. :p

I don't think those who oppose capital punishment want to coddle criminals any more than I think those who support capital punishment are callously indifferent to the dangers that the death penalty presents. I also realize that I suffer some degree of hypocrisy in that I would not willingly be the executioner nor would I want the burden of being a juror deciding a capital case. Maybe I oppose the death penalty, but I just don't know it. :)
 
Now the great 52% mystery: there are 13 prisoners on D Row found innocent and 12 that are executed. So, what percentage is each of those numbers of the total number of D Row prisoners (25) since a certain historical date? Well,
13 is 52% of 25. Divide 13 by 25 and BINGO: it's .52 or 52%!. Divide the other group, the executed: 12 in number, by the total 25 and BINGO: it's .48 or 48%. Add 52% and 48% and you get: 100% Bingo, you have accounted for all the 25 total prisoners. If you'd like to check, (for example the 52%), multiply 25 by .52 and BINGO!: you get 13!
So, 13 - the number of D Row prisoners determined innocent - is 52% of the total number of 25. And, since they were mistakenly - (or sometimes intentionally) - convicted and condemned wrongly and in error: 52% is the error rate.
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OK, I found this:

IL Inmates On Death Row 1977 to 1987

According to these numbers just between 1977 and 1987 there were 128 people on Death Row in Illinois. Just during that 10 year period! If this is any indication of the numbers convicted annually it would be approx. 13. 13 x 24 (1977-2000)= 312. If this number is anywhere near the total number of people convicted of a capital crime and sentenced to death in IL, and 13 people were exonerated it would make the true 'error rate' in the neighborhood of 4%. I really don't know what you would title the 52% but it really has no bearing on the percentage of wrongful DP convictions. This represents a 1300% distortion of the truth! :D

Now if there were 25 people executed in IL during that 24 years and 13 were found to be not guilty after their execution...Then the error rate would be 52%. It is my understanding that the 13 who were exonerated were not executed.
 
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This is the issue, innocent people have been put in prison to be raped (by individuals or gangs) for years, brutalized in various ways and often murdered by a flawed system.
If we apply the same rules to the government for killing in cold blood, the government would of been in jail.
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I thought a bit of context was in order. The "average" inmate has far fewer appeals opportunities, has far fewer resources expended on them (they don't have the "sex appeal" many advocacy groups are looking for), and receive less protection from the general population. Yet, the solution to the "innocent" convict problem (which absolutely does exist and always will) is often life in prison.

Personally, if I were wrongfully convicted, I'd rather go on death row. The odds of my surviving relatively intact until I can prove my innocence are greater.
 
I think you need to be extremely careful when citing Old Testament law in support of capital punishment.
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I agree, but this is not simply an Old Testament law...this is a command that still applies. To explain...as you know most of the Old Testament applied to the Jews, God's chosen people, which in fact, does not apply anymore because of the New Testament and Jesus, etc (I would happily explain to anyone who cared to know, just pm me), but this command refers to the people, the human nature, and humans in general that God has created. This was not meant for only the Jews, this was meant for everyone...murder is taking the life of someone who was created in the image of God. All that aside, I agree, religion causes each of us to believe certain things and this is why I am completely for the thought of capital punishment. Again, this is not to say that our judicial system does have problems and that is not what I am talking about.


I was getting somewhere with this, which wasn't totally obvious. The old testament is (mosaic) LAW; the new Testament is GRACE. The new testament is all about turning the other cheek. If we really want to get techical here, then here's Romans 6:14

Quote:
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Followed by Galatians 3:10

Quote:
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse
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Ok well first, the turning of the cheek has nothing to do with capital punishment. It is meant on a personal basis...i.e. if someone harms you, you should not get angry, you should turn the other cheek. It has nothing to do with the state punishing criminals for their crimes. It simply does not apply to the state. He was instructing us as individuals to turn the other cheek, not the government. With that in mind, I would agree that the family who has just had someone murdered by another human being does have a "duty" (if you want to call it that) to forgive the murderer, but in any case I am sure that would be extremely hard to do and it would take a much stronger Christian than I am to do that.

Second, the other verses you mentioned are great for taking the position that we, in this day and age, are no longer under the OT law. However, like I said above, Genesis 9:6 does not apply to only OT jews, but all that were created in the image of God, humans.

Which is why I get so annoyed when Christians try to stick the ten commandments inside courthouses.
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Ok, you are correct that the ten commandments are from the Old Law and apply to the Jews, but what is wrong with them? I just never saw a problem with them...thats for another discussion another day

These threads always end with some bible thumpers contorting ancient words to fit their agenda.
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I dont quote OT law to "fit" my agenda, its what I believe, thats why I believe in capital punishment.

Let it Bleed, your rationale for harsher punishment for certain people representative of various systems makes perfect sense.
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+1
 
Re: The Illinois cases

woops, that pesky computer problem. sorry-trying to fix it (my internet connection suddenly breaks)
 
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Re: Illinois Figures

The charge that figures posted on Illinois are so wildly inaccurate: No. The error rate IS 52%: Of the cases that came to conclusion between 1977 and 2000 (when the Death P. was suspended): 13 were found innocent and 12 were killed. But that ratio will continue until the population is exhausted. That's the "rate". So, for simplicity sake, say there's a 100 people on death row now and no more come on. and make it an even number: 10 found innocent, 10 found guilty, which would be a rate of 50%. So, from now until all of the 100 is either executed or found innocent, for every 10 executed 10 will be found innocent. At the end of the day when no one is left of the original 100, 50 will have been executed and 50 will have been found innocent. That's the projected number of a rate (in this example) of 50%. Because all of them were supposed to be guilty it's an ERROR Rate of 50%.

The reason 1977 is used as a start date is because that is the date Illinois re-instated the Death Penalty after the moratorium many states imposed in 1972, a natural consequence of the Supremes decision Furman v. Georgia, 408 U.S. 238 , which declared in effect that the Death Penalty was applied so capriciously and arbitraily as to be unconstitutional. Illinois (and other states) attempted to institute procedures to correct this. In 1977 they then gave the D Penalty another go, and the above was the result, it was still VERY capricious and arbitrary with roughly one found innocent for every one executed. Meaning there were likely a hell lot of innocent people sitting around Death Row waiting to be killed. So, they put the moratorium back on and continue it on, i believe, through the present.

The site I gave you that you don't like because it compiles data and the data is negative often to capital punishment: That is "killing the messenger". The data itself is the reason some sites containing such data are negative to CP. With data like that what would one expect? Almost all of the data is public record after all and/or reported by multiple news agencies or published elsewhere, so go look for a site you like more, it'll have the same data.

Or, instead of tossing out the reams of data with mutiple sources that is listed on Death Penalty Infomation Center (which is exactly what it's title suggests), why not do what you'd have to do in a major university or research center if you claimed published research facts/data with acceptable types of sources, was false. The onus would be on you to now substantiate that the specific data was false. You have all the data on that site (and many that contain the same) already complied. De-compile it, go to all the sources listed, or find your own, that give conflicting information on the same event, period, individual etc.. Then tell us what that is.

Anyway, enough: there are a significant number of innocent people being condemned and assuredly killed now and in the past and likely will continue to be in the future.. That's enough for me.

Bye For This One and Best to All
 
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Alright here you go.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/exonerations/Illinois.htm

In the quarter century between restoration of the Illinois death penalty and Governor George Ryan's blanket clemency order, 298 men and women were sentenced to death in Illinois. Of those, 18 have been exonerated — a rate of 6%, the highest exoneration rate of the 38 states with death penalties on their books.
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The 52% figure is a complete fabrication and cannot be twisted into anything else.

I am not, nor have I stated that I believe 6% or .6% is an acceptable number, nor that the number shouldn't be worked on. I just object strongly to fiction being sold to sheep who read headlines and never consider that the stats are intentionally flawed to be shocking.

Oh and in 2003 (I believe) the governor did a blanket commutation to life sentences for everyone on DR in IL.
 
BerettaCougar

These threads always end with some bible thumpers contorting ancient words to fit their agenda.
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Many people consider those ancient words to be the handbook by which they live and function in this modern world. They are comfortable quoting biblical text in support of their positions on real-world issues like capital punishment. Why is that a problem?
 
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Illinois or "Happy Trials Again..."

As equally true as your statement that it makes no difference that the Illinois numbers are 6% or .6% as to acceptability, is that the error rate IS 52%. The dates as stated in my post for the given stats are the years 1977-2000 and have an error rate of 52%, yours are through at least 2004. The former (52%) is accurate as a true error rate because after 2000 none were executed due to the moratorium and hence data limited for cases "ultimately completed" -- (the field of data used before 2000 and the most accurate indicator of the success or failure of certainity in executions). Without the moratorium, more would be executed like they had before at an error rate of 52%: or a ratio of one finalized case of execution for roughly one case finalized by innocence. They didn't WANT this to CONTINUE so they placed a moratorium in 2000. To get get a true error rate now, a final one, is not possible since none are being executed and the remaining D Row inmates cases are open to future findings. You can't have a ratio of executed to innocent with no executions currently allowed. When there it was more than 1 to 1, or 52% . The easiest way to think about this is this:

"We want to see if the death penalty is accurate. If it is, the final outcome should be as follows: 100% of condemned-cases should end with no evidence of innocence in appeals/investiagtions and these guilty executed. However, what we have found is that half the final outcomes show innocence upon appeal/investigation. We are wrong so far half the time. That means that when all the other cases on D Row reach THEIR final outcome half of all THOSE could easily be innocent as well, so before we get to that point we are going to stop it because we are no longer certain they are all guilty and we may not catch the error and kill (or perhaps have killed) innocent people. Our certainity is gone"

January 31, 2000
Web posted at: 10:33 p.m. EST (0333 GMT)
CHICAGO (CNN) -- Illinois Gov. George Ryan on Monday imposed a moratorium on the state's death penalty. All lethal injections will be postponed indefinitely pending an investigation into why more executions have been overturned than carried out since 1977, when Illinois reinstated capital punishment.
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In the State of Illinois, 12 people have been executed since 1977 while 13 have been released after proving their innocence-an error rate of 52 percent. [This from in or around 2000]

The ultimate truth though, as we both agree, is .52, .06, .006, is not acceptable.

And: Bye Bye All
 
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Many people consider those ancient words to be the handbook by which they live and function in this modern world. They are comfortable quoting biblical text in support of their positions on real-world issues like capital punishment. Why is that a problem?
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The problem? The problem is that when people resort to quoting their god (or other infallible source), their words become nugatory to everyone else who has different opinions or who worship other deities.
 
BerettaCougar
The problem is that when people resort to quoting their god (or other infallible source), their words become nugatory to everyone else who has different opinions or who worship other deities.
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Oh, I see. Because they are quoting from the Bible, their opinions are trifling while your opinions are not.
 
Oh, I see. Because they are quoting from the Bible, their opinions are trifling while your opinions are not.
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Correct.

When someone quotes the Christian Bible they are saying... "I'm right because my God said so, and you're wrong."

Completely avoiding reason.
 
BerettaCougar
Completely avoiding reason.
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I see. And would you take it as the truth if someone told you, for example, that light cannot escape from a black hole? You'd say "Sounds reasonable to me" ?
 
This has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

And to answer your question.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
So without knowing what you're speaking of I would keep from making an opinion on the matter.
 
BerettaCougar

"I have no idea what you're talking about.
So without knowing what you're speaking of I would keep from making an opinion on the matter."
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Perfect answer.....you proved my point.

I'll drop it.
 
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