Buying A Mosin For Long Range Shooting

aah: Well when I said he was interested in the accuracy, I meant more along the lines of the lack thereof *grin*. That's a good point about the potential money sink. On the upside it's not like I have much money to sink in the first place. I do imagine that gun envy will be a problem. I will confess that I'm not completely sure of his motivations.
 
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There's some misconceptions floating around in this thread's sea of comments....

First off, a bipod attached to the stock's forend enables a much smaller holding area on target in the prone position than just using a sling. If this were not true, then the NRA prone F-class targets' scoring rings would not be about half the size of standard NRA targets. The best prone shooters using slings alone can hold about 5/8 to 3/4 MOA and on a good day keep all their shots inside 1-1/2 MOA on paper. Top ranked F-class folks using both a sling and a bipod (or just resting the fore end on a soft support) can hold about 1/10th MOA and on a good day keep all their shots inside 5/8 MOA.

If that military sniper rifle test done a few years ago using military rifles is the one referenced, it was not a valid test. Not enough rifles of each type were used nor was ammo matched to any specific one for best accuracy. Why the Mosin Nagant appeared best was more luck that reality. Folks in the "know" knew the M1903 and British SMLE were overall better than the Mosin or M98 rifles used in WWII. If the Mosin was so good, how come it was never popular and successful in long range matches around the world like the M1903 and SMLE rifles were?

The most accurate sniper rifle ever used by any country in WWII was the Winchester Model 70 National Match rifle with an Unertl 8X target scope. With most any lot 172-gr. bulleted ammo, it would hold almost 1 MOA at 1000 yards with a new barrel. Col. Walter Walsh (USMC, Ret.) confirmed this to me some years ago at a reunion in a conversation about his work with them in the 1950's. Check out this article and read what the Col. has to say about them:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/military-winchester-model-70/

Col. Walsh's best remarks to me were about the Mod. 70's better trigger and shorter lock time made it superior to any M1903, M98, SMLE or Mosin sniper rifle made with all having the same basic accuracy level. Too bad Winchester was in financial straits in the late 1960's when the US military folks started looking for a replacement for the Model 70. Virtually all the military rifle team members where were also snipers (Krilling, Hathcock and others) wanted the Winchester as it was a better platform in all respects than the Remington.

Regarding the Mosin's accuracy, the best will happen when the bullets used are a few ten-thousandths bigger than groove diameter. As that Russian rifle has been gauged from .3090" to over .3160" groove diameter, the one you get may be hard to get decent accuracy from.

One think few folks forget or never consider. . .the more accurate the rifle and its ammo is, the faster one will learn to learn good marksmanship fundamentals. Therefore, I would not suggest anyone start learning marksmanship to high levels of performance start out with a Mosin 7.62x54R rifle.
 
Well good on you ZR for wanting a bang around high power shooter. The MN will get you there and pretty cheaply. And you can hit/kill stuff with it easily at 150m if the bore/ muzzle are decent and your vision and rifle skills are adequate. A friend gave me one a couple of years ago- I can't remember the model designation but it is a carbine w/o bayonet. It shoots well enough and recoil is tolerable. Good luck.
 
What you're more likely to see happen is putting more money into a mediocre Mosin over the next year & ending up with...a mediocre long range shooter that could have been avoided if you would have waited another year & got a better platform right out the gate.

The Savage budget rifle shoots well, and the Ruger American I have personal experience with.
The Ruger, with a $150 Redfield scope on it, outshot at 100 yards a dedicated multi-thousand-dollar FBI sniper rifle. Ruger on a carpet-covered wooden box range rest, FBI gun on a bipod. Both on a concrete bench.

The Ruger in .30-06 can easily hold at one inch or less, even with its relatively flimsy stock. It shoots far more accurately for most buyers than it has a right to, at a very affordable price. Other calibers are reportedly running under an inch at 100 routinely.

It does not have sights, you WILL need to glass it, but the end result would be more in line with what the Remington 700 can do than taking a chance on a tight or loose bore in a Mosin & will have a much superior trigger to anything you can do with the FACTORY Mosin trigger.

Right now, surplus Mosin ammunition is cheap, but unless you luck out on a really good can, it is not long range stuff.

Any Mosin is a gamble; if you're determined to go with it because it's free, just understand what you're getting into.

Exercising patience & saving up for another year might save you both money AND aggravation.
Cheaping out due to impatience has caused a lot of regret in the gun world (and elsewhere). :)

In my case, a bunch of effort went into my sporter, but only as a toy. I already had better rifles & that Mosin will never be used for anything but play. If I were broke, had no other guns & looking for a cheap hunting rifle, I'd probably pick up a Mosin.
Looking to get into long range stuff, even on a budget, nope.
Good luck with your project.
Denis



Denis
 
Is the mosin good for long range?

No, honestly the mosin nagant is a cool rifle but it doesn't go much further than that. It would cost far to much for you to make it competition accurate ate even 200 yards. Don't forget that you have to but scopes that have really long eye relief and generally scout scopes do not have much magnification. Getting into long range shooting is a great idea though. If money isn't to tight and you really think you will get into it than a Remington 700 SPS Tactical wouldn't be a terrible start. Now take into consideration scopes are extremely important in long range shooting so the gun alone isn't the major cost. If your not wanting to go that route (believe me most people new to guns don't have the money to just throw around) you could always buy a lower end rifle that has some good features (accurate, decent trigger, good barrel.... don't expect to much though). Something like a savage model 11 trophy hunter that already has a decent scope and is made by a company known for amazing accuracy wouldn't be a bad start. That specific package can be had for 400-500. then all you need is good ammo and a bi-pod. Now your probably not going to like this next suggestion because you probably just want to reach that 1000 yard mark as quickly as possible but if you want to become a great shooter you really need to learn the fundamentals. You could get a small caliber rifle (a .22lr) like the Savage Mark II for 100-150 and a good .22 scope for 50-90 dollars and then learn from 50-300 yards the fundamentals of long range shooting. All are great choices but if your new to shooting long range (or even just shooting) I would suggest a .22 because you will be able to take shots in the range a beginner would need and you would be doing it for a 10th of the cost in ammo.
 
ZRtayler

Thanks for the clairification, as i see it your still in a weird position since your funds are very tight you don't have many options and you have to be very careful with your choices.

Since this will be your first rifle I highly recommend you get a bolt action .22lr as your introduction to long range rifle shooting. You can get one with a desent scope for less than $200. You will learn more about bullet drop and wind holds then any other rifle. And you can actually afford to feed it and shoot 500rds in a range trip. I can tell you from experience that starting with a mosin will set you back more then help you. It is a very hard rifle to shoot accurately.

If you and your boss are dead set on getting a mosin get a 91/30
 
I forgot the size of the gong --- and the magazine rag title ---- but I think the size of the gong in the "so called" 900 yard test, was at least 36" in diameter. They did not test the SMLE, because they could not find any WWII ammo for the Enfield.

With the price of 22 rimfire ammo going up...you can probably shoot the surplus 7.62X54 round, for about 11 cents more apiece.

Both the Mosin carbines and the rifle have their own distinct sound, with a foot long ball of flame coming out of the muzzle's of the carbines; while using surplus ammo.

You'll have to be aware of a lot of fake M91-30 sniper rifles out there. I have a beautiful 1943 "IZZY" M91-30 sniper, which has an original dull colored "burnt wood" camo finish; that reminds me of the camouflage of a Tiger shark. It shoots 1 3/4" moa, with surplus Russian N-1 sniper ammo.

From a pedestal rest...my Mosin likes a firm hold. Don't get the thin barrel too hot --- especially the receiver ---- or the bullets will tend to walk on you.
 
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Exercising patience & saving up for another year might save you both money AND aggravation.
Cheaping out due to impatience has caused a lot of regret in the gun world (and elsewhere).
Click to expand...

If it's the only gun you can get, get it & make the most of it, but I really think you'll find much more satisfaction in the long run with just about any other modern bolt action rifle.

While my budget wasn't quite as tight as yours, I can relate. It sounds like you may have an opportunity to personally inspect & select your MN, which should remove some of the 'gamble factor', but in the long run it's still something of a crap-shoot whether you wind up with a good one or junk.

I too have been very pleased with my Ruger American for the price, and it includes many of the recommended accuracy-enhancing features right from the factory, including a user-adjustable trigger (+ warranty, & a free cheekpad;)).

IMHO, once the novelty of owning your own rifle wears off & your marksmanship skills improve, you'll find yourself comparing your targets with your boss & kicking yourself for not spending more up front.
 
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For about $300 or $400, sometimes less, you can pick up a nicely sportered 1917 Enfield or Mauser 98 in original 30.06, 8mm, or .308 in great condition. Sometimes a scope and sling comes with it, sometimes not. I'd look at something like that as the basis for your long-range rifle, you can bed the barrel, smooth the action, swap the scope, peep sights, etc., etc.

If your buddy's Mosin is in real nice shape, and about $150 in original condition, go ahead and buy it if you want it, but don't expect to hit the gong at 800 yards more than a few times a day.
 
Zaitsev had the best quality new Mosins made, with new optics and new ammunition.
He wasn't doing his sniping with bayonet-mounted iron sights regulated for volley fire, variable bores, warped wood, and 30-year-old ammunition. :)
Denis
 
It's obvious that many of you making suggestions have not closely read the OP's posts.

He is a young guy with no money and his boss has offered to buy him a rifle for FREE.

Take the free rifle. A 91/30 for free is a good deal. Ask for help and pick the best one that your boss is willing to buy.

I have a bunch of rifles and I have three 91/30's. They are decent rifles, especially for free.

Learn the fundamentals of marksmanship.

Save your money.

Research some rifles.

Have fun!
 
I have a Mosin 1938 "Izzy" 91/30 with a gorgeous .311 bore. It took me 2 years to find just what I was looking for. I've spent the last 2 years off and on fine-tuning it. With match bullets on the load I've developed for it, it WILL shoot sub-MOA without question and is most definitely a 1000M rifle. So don't tell me it isn't possible--it most certainly IS. Now... THAT being said, I've been doing this kind of rifle work most of my life. With a Mosin, it's a serious challenge for an experienced rifleman with decades of reloading/development/gunsmithing experience. For a beginner, I would call it a lottery chance to ever hit big money with frustrations at every turn. This is NOT to mean you shouldn't get a Mosin, especially under the circumstances of someone offering to buy it as a starter gift. HOWEVER, you need keep in perspective A)what skill level you have vs. what is necessary to shoot accurately at long range with ANY rifle and B) Mosins are NOT known for their precision capabilities under most circumstances.
 
To the people who think that the mosin is no good for long range, please consider this:

If you have a mosin in decent condition you can expect 3 MOA, maybe slightly better. At 500 yards this is approximately a 15 inch group. Take out a ruler and measure 15 inches. Now consider how far 500 yards is. If every single shot can land in that 15 inch circle, that is very accurate and quite impressive if you think about how old the rifle is and how inexpensive the ammunition is.

The mosin is an excellent first rifle for getting into long range. You can shoot very cheaply, make mistakes and learn the fundamentals. Are you going to win a competition? No. Are you going to hit the target and have fun? Yes.

Buy the mosin and enjoy it. Its not a match rifle, but it is plenty accurate to shoot at gongs and milk jugs.
 
rifleer,
you are not taking into account flinch, shooter error, flyers, wind drift and holdover.

in theory that group should only measure 15 inches but in reality it will be much larger and depending on how skilled the shooter is possibly double that.

rangefinder. I haven't been saying that it's impossible to get a mosin shooting accurately, I am just saying that it is incredibly unrealistic to grab a random mosin off a shelf and expect it to do what took you 4 years to find and put together.
 
Wow... a lot of Mosin bashers here it seems.

The guy is getting a free rifle and doesn't have a choice about it. I think if he gets to handpick the Mosin and inspect the rifle and bore, he has a good chance of getting a good one granted he does his homework and research on the rifle. Gander Mountain in my area has about twenty 91/30's on the shelf that you can choose from so I'm sure you can inspect them and handpick the best of the lot.

It is not impossible to accurize and sporterize/modify a Mosin. Its doable, just takes time, patience, and a bit of funds. I had a 91/30 that I sporterized that cost me around $240 total with a 3-9x40 Scope. Now I did not take my time to properly zero this Mosin for the lack of a range that is longer than 100yards. My M44 on the other hand is decent for short range under 100yards.

To the OP, good luck on the project and let us know how it goes. My advice is to get the longer 91/30 Mosin. The M44 will be less accurate due to the shorter barrel and more recoil/muzzle blast. Do your research and try getting a good Mosin to start with. I believe you can get the Hex Receiver 91/30's from Budsgunshop at $169 right now. Start slow and work your way up. Zero the rifle at 100yards trying to get the smallest group as you can then go from there. Your results may vary of course, depending on ammo, optic, rifle, and ultimately the shooter.

Keep us posted.

In the end if you find out that the rifle is not as accurate as you want (maybe 5MOA), then you would've at least gained some experience in shooting and modifiying an iconic rifle. And you will probably also end up with a nice Mosin!
 
Thank you very much to everyone who has contributed to this thread. My benefactor is intent on a Mosin, and so a Mosin it will be. However, this thread has certainly tempered my perspective on what I'm getting in to.

I went to the gun shop my boss uses regularly a couple days ago, got a look at what they had, and then decided to wait to see what developed in this thread. I feel much more confident that I will be content with this gift, and hopeful that I'll be able to use it to improve myself.

I certainly intend to bring my rifle to its fullest potential, but I'm no longer under the delusion that it's likely to ever be a 1000, or even 500 yard gun (assuming, of course, the unlikely event that I myself will ever become a 500 yard shooter in the first place *grin*).

I've decided to go with the 91/30. After handling both the 91s and 44s I feel that I like the balance of the 91/30 better, and I think it will be easier to derive benefit from that model, using the better sight radius. The rifle isn't as heavy as I feared, and I think it's quite manageable for hauling off in to the woods a little ways for target shooting, or setting up a hunting spot.

Judging from the selection I sampled a couple days ago there are a couple of 40s era Izzys with what appear to be unfired-quality bores, smooth bolts, very solid looking wood, and almost all the bluing intact. If they're still there tomorrow I'll be trying the triggers and eyeballing a few more details to choose which one to take home.

I'll post a picture later tomorrow evening. Thank you, again, to everyone who contributed.

-----

Now if you'll pardon me, I'm going to go watch "Enemy At The Gates" and mentally prepare myself for my first experience with cosmoline scrubbing. *grin*
 
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Yes, watching the "Enemy at the Gates" is a must for any Mosin owner :D

I don't doubt that a Mosin is capable of 500yard shots; it just might not be as accurate as a Rem700 obviously. Seeing this is your project gun and you have access to other rifles for practice, I think you'll do just fine with a 91/30.

You should be able to hit targets in 100-200yards fairly easily with enough practice and good ammo. The surplus stuff is not the most accurate, but there are a couple of different ammo brands you can choose from to see which one will give you the best accuracy.

Just to share my sporterized Mosin 91/30 to see what you can do with a sub-$200 rifle. Middle one is a M44. Scope is a 2-7x30 long eye relief.



Funny thing is, my roomate has a Remington 700 in .308 and when he saw my sporterized Mosin, his jaw dropped...
 
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