Buying A Mosin For Long Range Shooting

Z

ZRTaylor

New member
Friendly greetings everyone. I've had an offer extended to me by a friend of mine to purchase a Mosin Nagant rifle on my behalf, to serve as my first rifle. This winter he's planning to purchase a Remington 700 for himself and the idea is that the two of us will gradually start working on long range shooting.

I love the idea of long range shooting, have a pretty good head for math and physics, and shooting appeals to me a great deal. I intend to take him up on his offer, but I need to rethink some things, and I'm on a tight schedule so I'm asking for advice.

I've been intending to purchase a Mosin for a while, and have done research accordingly. I feel confident in my ability to check the fundamentals of the rifle (chamber/barrel pitting, firing pin length, the provenance of the rifle, etc) but my idea thus far as been to purchase a carbine-length variety, an M44, M38, or ideally a Finnish M39. The concept was that I wanted to be able to haul the rifle easily, and the carbine length seemed handier. My understanding was also that at <150 yards or so the difference in accuracy between a carbine and the 91/30 was negligible.

I also intended to do a lot of work on the rifle myself as a learning experience. Improving the trigger, floating the barrel, truing the action, etc.

However, with the long term goal being shooting out to 500 meters or even (god forbid) 1000 I'm no longer very confident in the idea of a carbine, or perhaps even a Mosin in general.

*Is a Mosin even capable of a shooting accurately at this distance? Is this even a reasonable idea or am I setting myself up for pain?

*Should I stick with my original idea of choosing a carbine for the handiness factor and ease of carry, or would I be better served in my goals to go for a 91/30?

*Should I be looking for a rifle with a PU scope attached, or would I be better off replacing the rear sight with a Picatinny mount and purchasing a scout scope at a later date?

*Is a sling an acceptable alternative to a bipod? Is the standard Mosin sling acceptable for improving support, or should I look in to installing a different style?

Thank you for taking the time to read. If I sound like a schlep, it's because I probably am. Thanks in advance for your patience and indulgence. *grin*
 
Is the mosin capable of accurate shooting at 500+ yards? Flat answer, no.

If you want to get into long range shooting then start with a bolt action .243 Win. Something along the lines of a Savage model 10.

Is a sling an acceptable substitute for a bipod? Not for prone or bench shooting it isn't. Is it capable to become proficient with a sling? Sure, but it will never match a bipod for stability (with any rifle)
 
And unless you hand load, the accuracy of Mosins in general is quite poor.Tthe accuracy difference between the carbine and full size Mosins is not much... They are both poor long range shooters as a general rule.

Modifying a mosin is also not as possible as you are hoping. If you want an older military rifle (from the past century or so) capable of being accurate at extended ranges, it is hard to pick a better rifle than an M1 Garand or an M1903. But neither of those come cheap.
 
Yep, their not know for their accuracy. I guess the sniper mosin's might be the best for accuracy. But at the cost of them, I's rather have a modern bolt action.
 
The issue at hand is that I don't have any other options. The offer was to purchase a Mosin on my behalf. I'm simply trying to determine what combination of factors will give me the best results in the long run, using long range shots as a metric/goal.

allaroundhunter: What are the issues with modification? When I say modification I don't mean drop-in parts or anything of that nature. My goal is try out a few simple hand-smithing techniques. Are there issues there I should be aware of?
 
1. mosin nagants are not known for their accuracy. yes the occasional mosin(especially the finnish models as they had higher requirements for acceptance than russians) will be capable of very decent accuracy but the majority are just too inaccurate to turn into long range tack drivers.

2. carbine length will kill overall velocity as well as bullet stabilization, you can lose several hundred FPS with the shorter barrels and that will mean more bullet drop to have to compensate for over range.

3. M39s are not carbines, they are full length rifles like the 91/30s, russian M38s, M44s and chinese type 53s are the three types of carbines I am aware of. even if they were, they have a great deal of collectors value and some people may cry if they see someone attempting to bolt stuff to it and hurt the historical value of them... not me necessarily but considering I've never seen one in person I'd probably be upset if I found one and had a bunch of cheap ATI junk bolted onto it.

4. mosins are no longer the most economical way to build a cheap decent rifle. if you figure $180 for the rifle, $90 for a timney trigger upgrade, $70 for a decent scope mount, $80 for a bent bolt to clear it and a recrown job then you are much worse off than if you just went and spent $320 for a Ruger American Rifle that is brand new and doesn't stand the risk of being shot out, beaten, abused and otherwise potentially compromised.

5. the cheap mosin ammo is not very accurate and neither is the super expensive stuff either. something more modern like 243 winchester would be a much better target round and would not suffer the poor QC that surplus mosin ammo does... it's not corrosive either.
 
Is a sling an acceptable substitute for a bipod? Not for prone or bench shooting it isn't. Is it capable to become proficient with a sling? Sure, but it will never match a bipod for stability (with any rifle)
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That isn't true, if one learns to use a sling properly, and learns proper positions the sling is just as accurate as a bipod, (or more so in my case). You wouldn't use the Mosin "dog collar" sling set up. Put a 1 1/2 sling swivel on the bottom of the stock and use the M1907 type sling, which by the way, this modification IS LEGAL in CMP GSM Games.

mosin nagants are not known for their accuracy
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If you pick a good barrel, good ammo, and learn to shoot the Mosin it is accurate. With proper bullets it can be quite effective at 1000 yards.

Sierra makes some great bullets (180 gr SMKs) for the Mosin, it has the same velocity as the 308.

One thing I seened mentioned is "floating". I don't know about the carbine but don't float the barrel on the rifle, I've seen people try that and never seen one that worked. Not all guns should be floated, the Mosin is one that shouldn't.

Assuming you get a good barrel, the difference between a 100 yard Mosin and a 1000 yard Mosin is the amount of time the shooter spends in learning to shoot the rifle.

I don't use scopes on my Mosin, so I want address that, but as to the rifle vs. carbine, with iron sights the longer sight radius of the rifle makes it more accurate or should I say, makes it easier to shoot accurately.
 
That isn't true, if one learns to use a sling properly, and learns proper positions the sling is just as accurate as a bipod, (or more so in my case)
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then you are a great marksman indeed and I would hate to compete against you. I am much more stable shooting off sandbags and bipods than I am prone with a sling. using the sling does increase accuracy over shooting free hand but I just can't ever see myself saying that I shoot just as accurately with a sling as I can with a bipod.

another point for ZRTaylor,
recoil is a nasty thing, starting out with too much kick can make you unconciously flinch before each shot and that can really hurt your accuracy, especially at range. I might suggest if your range has rentals to try something quite a bit smaller than 7.62x54R and work your way up until you either reach 7.62x54R comfortably or you meet your threshold of where you still feel comfortable with the felt recoil. having a full powered cartridge being fired out of a gun with a metal buttplate may not be the best choice for a person that is just starting out shooting rifles.
 
Well if you are interested in long range shooting(or rather long range hitting what you are shooting at) on a budget then a MN should be the last choice. Get a Savage/Stevens of some sort and then you can tinker and tune to your heart's delight and actually have an economical accurate rifle and learn a lot. If you want to be Vasily Zaitsev or whatever his name was get a MN- just don't expect to be pleased beyond having a legendary peasant's rifle.
 
You would be better off learning the fundamentals of long range shooting with a .22 while you save up money for a more suitable rifle than going with a MN... Even if someone else is footing the bill.

For just a gun to have and shoot occasionally, sure the MN is an okay. Long range shooting/learning? Nope.
 
I would forget about a mosin for long range they are 3-4 MOA guns generally so your looking at 30"-40" groups at 1k

The amount of money and time you will spend to try to mount a scope and fix the terrible trigger not to mention the recoil you could buy a modern rifle that's 3/4 - 1.5 MOA right out of the box.

Have your friend donate the $150 for a mosin towards a Ruger,Savage,Stevens,Howa in .308 or .243 that you can find used for $500 and put a decent $300-$400 scope on it and you will have no problems shooting out to 1k yards.
 
The Mosin is a poor choice for serious 500-1000 yard accuracy.

I have been able to put three rounds under 3 inches at 100 yards with standard un-modified Mosin rifles without much effort. Occasionally a fraction better.

I can do better regularly with both my sporterized rifle and my PU sniper version, both use glass. They can get under 1.5 inches for three shots with optics & good ammunition.
I'd be confident out to 400 yards on a man-sized silhouette with either, using a good commercial load. Fairly confident out to 500-700 yards with a good handload.

There's discussion on one of the PU sniper forums of an ongoing challenge to pull off "headshots" at 800 meters. Some are getting hits on silhouettes, but the headshot's very difficult.

A carbine would be useless for true long range shooting.

By sinking a bunch of money into a Mosin (the value of the work on my sporter with Boyds stock, aluminum post bedding, barrel cut to 22 inches, rear sight removed, military trigger smoothed, extended bent bolt handle, Rock Solid scope base, Leupold scope & rings, and Duracoat finish far exceeds the value of the gun afterward & it is still no target piece), you CAN increase performance.

Is it worth it?

Doing so is more a matter of either desperation (as in your case if you're not old enough to buy your own gun) or a matter of a desire to tinker with a toy than a matter of practicality.

As mentioned above, if you can float a Ruger American you'll have a far more accurate rifle right out of the box (after sticking a scope on it) for half of what you'd be putting into a Mosin rebuild of any quality.

Floating the barrel, truing the action, improving the trigger?
Nope. :) Not worth it, in your position.

Scout scope? Not for long range accuracy. Better than iron sights, not as good as a larger & more powerful optic for more precise accuracy way out there.

Wait till you're old enough & get something that's worth working with, if you really plan to shoot long distances.
Your buddy will be riding a café racer while you'll be puffing along on a beat-up old Schwinn one-speed pedal job.

I assume you're under-age from your wording.
If not, buying a gun on your "behalf" is presumably a gift. Presumably you're not a restricted person with someone using your money to buy the gun for you.
If you can't afford to buy your own rifle, then you'll have to take whatever your friend will give you.
You don't sound knowledgeable enough to pull off what you're thinking, and the Mosins can only be pushed so far. After which, you'd have an expensive toy not worth nearly what you put into it that won't shoot to 1000 yards with the cheap surplus ammunition available till it runs out.

You'd need commercial ammunition or to start reloading to maximize your long range capability, so there's no real advantage in the Mosin there.
Denis
 
If you're planning to learn the basics of long range rifle shooting...by all means, get a Mosin. The PU scope mounted, M91-30, has been proven to be the most accurate sniper rifle of World War 2, with consistent 900 yard gong hits using WW2 ammo; during recent tests.

With cheap corrosive ammo...you can shoot all day with a Mosin. A Scout mounted scope is a viable alternative. A iron sighted M91-30, with bayonet attached, shoots closer to point of aim than without.

Be careful not to polish the trigger spring too much --- Do a drop test to verify safety after polishing the trigger group.

When loading single rounds...be careful not to have the bullet point of the round pointed down slightly into the mag well, while the bolt is being pushed forward; which might cause a premature discharge with the bullet exiting out thru the bottom of the forearm.
 
Consistent at 900 yards with WWII ammunition?
How big was the gong & who did the tests? :)

There are some very dedicated PU shooters on the forum I referred to who are not finding that level of accuracy.
Denis
 
My mosin 91-30 wears a Boyds thumbhole stock, Rock Solid bent bolt handle, Rock Solid scope mount with Nikon scope, original length barrel, polished trigger... Havent stretched it out, but my hunting reloads (hornady .311 soft-points at +– 2900fps) go 5 into 1 inch at 100yd... Nothing inaccurate about that. Yes, i've got as much $ in it as a ruger american, but i did the work myself, the ruger wasn't available when i started, and i have no regrets! Also, the Boyds seemingly takes half the recoil out of the equation...ImageUploadedByTapatalk1375830869.883619.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1375830893.183233.jpg
 
Mosin's are ok for long range shooting, just want to get one with a good bore. Instead of floating the barrel I found it best to bed the barrel, I just used some electrical tape to bed. I did a little trigger work to mine so it is very nice now. Be carefull doing trigger work, you don't want it so light that if the gun falls it could fire. Work it in slow steps. Here is a short vid when I took 5 shots with my 91/30 at 600 yards at a 16"x 18.5" steel target. I hit it twice, both consecutive hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEzM3bVp4N0

Here's another at 400 yards shooting at a steel plate just bigger than a sheet of paper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TpOnKR8imA

They are capable rifles, also the only ammo I've used so far is the factory brown bear ammo. Seems to work good for me.
 
The issue at hand is that I don't have any other options. The offer was to purchase a Mosin on my behalf
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What is the reason you can't purchase a gun for your self? Why is your friend insistant on buying a Mosin Nagant?
 
more than likely the friend is looking to do research for a paper or just idol curiosity and so he's trying two guns at opposite ends of the spectrum and adding a second shooter as a control group.

I think some people are misinterpreting the term 'long range' as it pertains to this topic. the OP is not a brand new shooter attemping to shoot at 1000 yards. his intention is to start at closer ranges(within 150 yards though I would recommend within 50 to start but 150 is not a horrible starting distance) and work out to a maximum of 500. a 1000 yard rifle is not necessary but I still wouldn't trust a luck of the draw cookie cutter mosin nagant to be accurate enough to hit anything at 500 yards.
 
tahunua001: Thanks for the information. Your post was very concise and helped my data gathering a lot. Your most recent post regarding my intentions was correct. The general idea is to work back and see what's possible, more so than trying to push a rifle in to a role it was never meant to serve. I'm a little worried about growing a flinch myself, but I don't intend to use a Mosin as a primary training rifle, and there will be plenty of long practice sessions with a .22 to hopefully offset any negative tendencies. Do you think that would be a sufficient offset? On a side note I confused the M39 with the M59. Apologies.

kraig: I'll look in to the sling suggestion, thank you. I have a feeling it might end up being a "Your Mileage May Vary" situation with slings. I can certainly see some advantages over drilling a rifle for bipod mounts though.

TnTnTn: Thanks for the advice. I'm certainly looking at other options for a better rifle down the road. I'll be explaining my reasons for the Mosin later on in this post.

allaroundhunter: I intend to do most of my training with a .22 rifle. In fact that's one factor that went in to the idea of a Mosin. The ammo seems to be vastly less expensive than any other center-fire caliber, at least for the moment. At best this rifle will be a "shoot occasionally" item to supplement practice with more economical calibers.

Nemsis: The nature of the offer eliminates the possibility of such a "donation." On top of that, saving for a $500 rifle and a $400 scope means that I would be another year and a half without a rifle to call my own.

DPris: Thank you for the clarification on the scout scope issue. The idea of "tinkering" does appeal to me, and I feel more comfortable tinkering with a rifle whose parts I can replace rather cheaply, and I don't have to worry about voiding a warranty on. You're probably right about not being knowledgeable enough to pull off some of the stuff I have in mind, but the point is to learn. There's nothing really serious about the idea of long range shooting. That idea has been somewhat thrust upon me by the person making the offer. Behalf was a poor choice of wording. I'll explain more at the end of this post.

Erno: I'll write those tidbits down in my notebook for later reference. Thank you. Especially for the drop test suggestion.

KeifB: Sounds like a fun, and successful, project. Looks good.

Grizzdude: I'll add that to Erno's drop test suggestion. Thank you.

Cheapshooter: I'll explain at the end of this post.

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I think the thread has gotten a bit muddled. I'll try to clarify my intent and my question a little more.

I'm 24 years old, and work a seasonal gig with moderate to low pay. I've been interested in shooting for over a year, shooting on my boss' rifles consisting of 10/22s, AR pattern rifles, and 12 gauge shotguns, even fixing up a little Rough Rider revolver that someone gave me when the ejector rod broke off. Whenever I can I've been setting aside $15-$20 that I can spare from my paycheck, planning to finally buy a rifle that I could call my own. Since I have fairly ready access to .22 rifles to practice on regularly, my intention was to buy a center-fire rifle that I could indulge my itch for hobby smithing on and wouldn't have to worry about failing on me or getting dinged up. Failing and getting dinged up were important factors, since any sort of firearm purchase would amount to a significant chunk of my annual "fun" budget.

This brings me to why I was set on the Mosin. Firstly it's a cheap rifle, and most specimens seem to come complete with complimentary "dings" intact. My understanding is that there isn't a lot that one could do to break one, and any components damaged by failed experiments could be fairly cheaply replaced. The rifle also appealed to me because it's so iconic. It's not something anyone not in to guns would often see, and I like the philosophy behind the design of the weapon. Furthermore the ammo is very cheap, which means I could afford to fire it almost all I wanted without hearing a cash register chime every time I pulled the trigger. It's not fun to shoot a .308 when five rounds can constitute a 2-3 days worth of one's lunch budget for the week.

I was faithfully saving all season long, my plan being to spend up to $200 on a good M44 or M38 carbine, with another $250 set aside for a crate's worth of surplus ammo and a handful of higher grade rounds. However, life being what it was, I was constantly having to compromise what I'd set aside for old college bills, or various other little minutely disastrous Acts of Life that we all undoubtedly experience. A couple weeks ago I crunched the numbers and came to the conclusion that I wouldn't be able to meet my goal this season, which means everything would be on hold until the Spring and my accrued savings would most likely evaporate.

Enter my boss, the "friend" in the first post of this thread. He has a fairly well appointed gun safe, mostly consisting of carbine length semi-automatics in .22 and .223. He's had an itch for a while though to build himself a nice, expensive, .308 Remington 700 and take up long range shooting. The little nest egg I was struggling to build was less than a tenth of what he was planning to spend on his 700. Hearing a conversation about my plight, he then offered to take me to his favorite gun store and let me pick out a Mosin of my choosing. His reasons for this were manifold, but explaining them would make an already long post even longer. Suffice to say that he's set on a Mosin because he's always been curious about one, but knows little about them and is uncertain of their accuracy and recoil. He's also mentioned that if he purchases this rifle, or provides the money to purchase it rather, that I should come shooting with him after he buys his Remington 700.

This throws a wrench in the works because we're supposed to go tomorrow morning. All my original plans are somewhat awry because my intention had been to purchase a carbine length Mosin to make it easier to carry without sacrificing much accuracy out to my planned ranges (150 meters MAX). Now, however, my rifle is being bought for me, but I'm somewhat having its intended use dictated for me as well. I hadn't researched or planned for a "sniper" Mosin, and even though the idea of long range appeals to me I have no illusions about being Johnny Crackshot and matching a fraction-of-MOA 700 with a Slavsh*t cannon-substitute traditionally lubricated with an archaic mixture of cheap vodka and the tears of Nazi widows.

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Hence my original questions. I basically want to know if a carbine I can afford to shoot can make a good enough show to be interesting to shoot while my rich boss is next to me punching tiny groups with a 6-grand rifle. The other questions are just details added for the sake of brevity instead of starting a whole new thread at a later point on the subjects of slings, modifications, etc.
 
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Your boss will have very little interest in your Mosin's shoot ability if he has a remington 700. He may be interested in the history, but not its accuracy. Regardless of whether you go with the carbine or rifle, groups around 4" at 100 yards with surplus ammo will be the norm, while your boss (depending upon his skillset) may be shooting sub 1" groups at the same distance. As you push it out further, the differences will only be magnified.

What I would be more worried about us the money that you could potentially put into the Mosin, only to shoot your boss's .308 and be displeased with the accuracy of your own gun.
 
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