Bush vetoes ban on harsh interrogation

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Really, because one of the most vocal supporters of waterboarding is ex-CIA, thus not subject to the "pressures" of the administration.
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Ummm...you mean John Kiriakou...the one that says waterboarding is torture now and thinks America should be above such tactics?
And again, these are experts that have never used the technique nor witnessed it in real circumstances.
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Yes, they have...they are the ones the devise the interogation methods and oversee their implementation. The people you like to quote (actually the one person) never even witnessed the actuall waterboarding.

The most vocal supporters of waterboarding are not specialist but more CIA bureaucrats.
For all of this theory and "evidence" that allegedly supports what you guys are saying, it should be simple to show me someone in the CIA who says it doesn't work.
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Yeah, we all can just point out CIA agents and get official statements of their opinions. :rolleyes:

You have been shown multiple examples of official statements that claim torture is not a reliable method of gathering information and you disregard that completely...maybe you need to be more specific about what type of proof you need.
 
But that right there is the point. If waterboarding were no more useful than torture, then analysts wouldn't waste their time with it. There wouldn't be a huge debate about it. The CIA wouldn't call it a irreplacable tool.
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There is not a huge debate about it anywhere but in the political theater. It is considered torture by every relevant source except for the ones trying to persuade the American population to look the other way. Even the source you claimed before as a supporter admits it IS torture and also admits never actually seeing any information gathered during the procedure. It is not more successful than electrodes or reeds under the fingernails. It is not some magical method that somehow works differently than other methods.
 
Another question... how long were you waterboarded for? I assume only a few minutes? What if you had been waterboarded for hours? Would it still cause no problems? Would you not die from water intoxication?
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.......long enough to spill. EVERYONE spills. Waterboarding for hours would be ignorant. Doesn't take that long.

and in what training are the routinely waterboarding trainees???
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Your either not serious or not MI outside of admin. *** training was mandatory. Fill in the asterisk if you know them.......

I have been tear gassed on multiple occasions and it does not illicit anywhere near the same psychological response as waterboarding.
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Been waterboarded? The teargas was AS choking but much much more painful and took much longer to recover from. Without the knowledge you were on your way to fresh air the panic would be equal but the pain factor makes teargas worse.

Seems more and more like someone is hypothesizing and attempting to make that into substance. This is called sophistry but hey, who are they fooling anyway.

Intel does more to protect this country in a year they bullets and bombs can ever do. These guys fight without recognition and without asking for any acknowledgment. They are easy targets for domestic attacks politically and they facing just such attacks now. Repugnant.
 
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Your either not serious or not MI outside of admin. *** training was mandatory. Fill in the asterisk if you know them.......
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I am very serious...what was your MOS and when were you active? The ARMY has not used waterboarding as a standard training technique since I was active in training troops outside of MI and sometime aerial related MOS's...at least not that I am aware of, and the only training I have seen that used it routinely was Air Force and I do not believe they do it anymore either except for specific specialties.

I am curious if you are speaking from personal experience or relating exaggerated tales on the net of what happens during survival training.

I can honestly say that during my official survival training I was never waterboarded, I was never hooded and abducted, I was never beaten, never locked in a hot box for extended times, I was never starved, and I was never physically abused in any other substancial ways. I was almost drowned but it was not by waterboarding. Although I have heard people relate these horrible stories of terrible things that were done to them. Either I was just lucky (along with most people I know) or some of the stories are a bit exaggerated.
 
Your demonstrating the same tactic the liberal Democrats are taking and that I have been calling repugnant.

You know very well I'm not going to spell out what I've done because until a few more years pass I'm bound. To spill, especially on a pubic forum, would be a breach. Nice that you, like the liberal Democrats in leadership, can depend on the fact that the substantiation is unattainable.

The Democrats in leadership 'leaked' just enough information to incite villainous suspicion knowing the CIA cannot itemize the instances of waterboarding and the capital yielded to justify the practice so they ride the wave on the backs of the people doing the work. They KNOW it works and KNOW the CIA can't prove it to the public.

I was in the world finest Navy. We don't use MOS but my rate didn't reflect my job anyway. My work along with that of MANY others brought the name 'Russia' back. The **** training however wasn't special. All the Os had to do it just to have thier normal job.

Further, you have stated:
I have been tear gassed on multiple occasions and it does not illicit anywhere near the same psychological response as waterboarding.
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AND.......

I can honestly say that during my official survival training I was never waterboarded
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You don't KNOW....you 'feeel' or 'think' but you do not KNOW. I DO know and your wrong, flat wrong. It works, every time, and it doesn't not rise to torture. No pain, not injury, no harm.

Torture never works, waterboarding does..........
 
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It works, every time, and it doesn't not rise to torture. No pain, not injury, no harm.
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I have asked, but no one ever answered, so I will ask again.

Are you saying that if something does not cause pain or injury, then it is not torture?
 
You tell us where the line is.......the DMV and traffic court could get votes.

How about something you wouldn't subject your own to.
 
I am asking where the line is, and I would really like a serious answer.
I have never waterboarded or tortured anyone.
You seem to have had more experience, and therefore I asked the question.

Does something have to cause physical harm to be torture?

Is it OK to use any technique that does not cause physical harm?

You seem to be justifying the use of waterboarding because it works and is not torture because it causes no permanent harm.
 
You know very well I'm not going to spell out what I've done because until a few more years pass I'm bound.
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No, you are bound to withhold specifics until released by direct order from proper channels. There is no time limit. You can however say what your MOS was and of what your training consisted except under very specific instances.

I have said I was not waterboarded during survival training and have never seen it as part of standard training for regular infantry nor for other non-aerial or MI related MOS's in the ARMY.

And I hate to break it to you...waterboarding is torture. Nowhere does the definition of torture require pain to be involved. Psychological torture is the most widely used type and it causes no physical pain. If you were trained in "information gathering" you are well aware of the official stance. The current administration can question that stance all they want but that does not change it. MI and the CIA both take the official stance that torture does not yield substantial results but that does not mean they rule it out because no matter what the actual experts say, there is always a gung-ho commander or bureaucrat that thinks they know better.

People do crack under waterboarding...but they also crack when being placed in stress positions and after being electrocuted. That does not make the information viable. It is still most likely to be just what the person doing the procedure wants to hear.

The one big event that Bush (a known liar) likes to point to is highly questionable. The tapes were destroyed (yet not other similar tapes) and the person has been found since then to have no true tactical knowledge and is possibly mentally ill. The person that backed up Bush's claim has since admitted he never actually witnessed the event either.

Any basic 96B can tell you that information gathered from such techniques has no better history of panning out than do simple hunches or purchased information.
 
Wrong again. Aperently you think your more knowledgable then you are. All things are not Army or MI. I KNOW my bounds. You seem to think you know them better.
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Then you did not take the same oath I did...any information that is still classified or was released to you as classified or higher cannot be divuldged after a random time period.

Unless you are saying you cannot reveal your MOS. If that is true (and it only is in very specific cases) you have violated the spirit of that agreement by even alluding to your involvement in such fields.
 
Bruxley feel free to answer my questions anytime.
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response........

How about something you wouldn't subject your own to.
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You have more insight or is that going to do it for you.

Would we decapitate our own, send our own into a public place with explosives strapped to then, electrocute, burn, skin, mame, hobble or so on?

There's your line. It's not official but it seems like a good guideline no?
 
How about something you wouldn't subject your own to.
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So you are saying we are using waterboarding to extract information from our own people?

I am not sure a training test where you know they are not trying to kill you is the same as the real thing. You knew they weren't really going to kill you, and they told you what to expect and how to deal with it. I don't think they will do that during a real waterboarding.
 
Then close the trap smart guy. Good luck:p

Unless YOU can tell us what you've learned that is classified then YOU are wrong S'MORE.

(Didn't take the bait remember Senator Reid..........)
 
OK PBP I'll help ya..........

Unless you are saying you cannot reveal your MOS. If that is true (and it only is in very specific cases) you have violated the spirit of that agreement by even alluding to your involvement in such fields.
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NOW...................

Unless YOU can tell us what you've learned that is classified then YOU are wrong S'MORE.
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WHAT involvement in WHAT fields........

The feel, think, know thing didn't ring a bell eh? Interesting.
 
I understand the philosophy of "think, feel, know" and it's relevance. I am just not seeing the correlation you are making.

Like I said...for the most part, your MOS is part of your public record and can be learned from something as simple as a form 66. Only the details and location of your activities are classified in most cases. If you were truly in a field were you are not even allowed to divulge your MOS then you are not allowed to be alluding to it either. "Super secret spy" types do not go on chat boards and go "wink, wink, nod, nod...you know what I mean."
 
Hmmm....Long thread in a mere 2 days ;)

But leastways....Pretty much happy that Bush vetoed the bill...... I have no qualms about using waterboarding...hey..it don't kill them and doesn't inflict permanent injury... And when THEY start going by the Geneva THEN....we MIGHT.....
 
"Super Secret Spy".....THAT'S GREAT! Quite a bit more then I remember but hey!

Not being specific leads to over speculation for sure but "Super Secret SPY" WOOOO !!!!!!

Can't wait to tell the kids!!!

Do I get a trench coat and cool hat with that?
 
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