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Bush vetoes ban on harsh interrogation
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Let's go with that logic.
A) Torture NEVER works.
-I agree
B) Waterboarding DOES work
-shown and proven
Conclusion - Waterboarding isn't torture.
So the false connection is that waterboarding is torture is the root of the misunderstanding. Waterboarding is done to personnel in training to get the mystery and therefore fear dealt with. Teargas in basic training is another example. I suppose teargas in rioting crowds is torture too. Sure makes you believe you can't breath and is actually painful. OC is out too. Tazers are torture no?
The protesters are waterboarding people at their demonstrations......torture right? Hardly, they are actually proving it's benign effects. Sure freaks em out but didn't drown or harm anyone of those protesters.
Been waterboarded twice. Preferred it over the other options. Speak out of hyperbole s'more if you like but it is growing thin and weak. It works, ought to remain an option, and the activities of the intelligence community ought to remain in closed session where they belong and not 'leaked' in a manner to gain political advantage. This behavior is what is truly repugnant.
Waterboarding is rarly used because it is used when assets are KNOWN to posses capital that is actionable and when it is used it works. It isn't a tool to gain a confession, it is a tool to get the spill. And spill they will. Five minutes later they are fine. Coughing has stopped and runny nose wiped. Hair may still be wet though. And lives are saved.
A) Torture NEVER works.
-I agree
B) Waterboarding DOES work
-shown and proven
Conclusion - Waterboarding isn't torture.
So the false connection is that waterboarding is torture is the root of the misunderstanding. Waterboarding is done to personnel in training to get the mystery and therefore fear dealt with. Teargas in basic training is another example. I suppose teargas in rioting crowds is torture too. Sure makes you believe you can't breath and is actually painful. OC is out too. Tazers are torture no?
The protesters are waterboarding people at their demonstrations......torture right? Hardly, they are actually proving it's benign effects. Sure freaks em out but didn't drown or harm anyone of those protesters.
Been waterboarded twice. Preferred it over the other options. Speak out of hyperbole s'more if you like but it is growing thin and weak. It works, ought to remain an option, and the activities of the intelligence community ought to remain in closed session where they belong and not 'leaked' in a manner to gain political advantage. This behavior is what is truly repugnant.
Waterboarding is rarly used because it is used when assets are KNOWN to posses capital that is actionable and when it is used it works. It isn't a tool to gain a confession, it is a tool to get the spill. And spill they will. Five minutes later they are fine. Coughing has stopped and runny nose wiped. Hair may still be wet though. And lives are saved.
Sounds like McCain may think torture does work.
So are you saying that the US armed forces were guilty of crimes in Vietnam. It would appear to seem that you are.
The point we're trying to make is that anybody will say anything under torture, true or not. Do we really have to make that point over and over again, even after five pages? Sheesh!
I find unlikely the idea that those who would push for laws cutting hands off pick pockets, beheading unfaithful wives and publicly caning others, would be so offended by the idea of waterboarding that news of the technique would drive them to jihad against the US.
Their sensitivities just are not that finely tuned.
So are you saying that the US armed forces were guilty of crimes in Vietnam. It would appear to seem that you are.
Nope. (And how on earth did you reach that conclusion based on what I wrote?) Playboypenguin made the assertion that he, with his 8 years experience in "intelligence", along with John McCain (because he has been tortured) agree that torture does not work. I contest that statement because McCain himself succumbed to torture.
For every "expert" you line up stating torture does not work, I can line up one saying it does. It is an endless argument that neither of us will win nor will we convince the other.
PS. And the US military DID use what would be defined as torture during the Vietnam war. In the 300+ books I have on the subject, I have countless autobiographies from military persons and other references admitting to it. It was not wide spread or officially endorsed, but it did occur. Same with WWII.
Unregistered
Moderator
Tazers are torture no?
If the subject was tied down, and he was being tazed in order to get information, then yes that is torture.
It isn't a tool to gain a confession, it is a tool to get the spill. And spill they will. Five minutes later they are fine.
I assume, then, that any technique that does not cause physical injury would be ok with you? As long as the subject is "fine" five minutes later you are OK with it?
Another question... how long were you waterboarded for? I assume only a few minutes? What if you had been waterboarded for hours? Would it still cause no problems? Would you not die from water intoxication?
Nope. (And how on earth did you reach that conclusion based on what I wrote?)
But if the confession was obtained under torture and the confession was not true does that not invalidate the usefulness of the torture? The VC or whatever phrase is used these days either got good information or bad. You tell me which it was.
As was said earlier, give me a week and I'll get you to confess to the two Kennedy murders, Martin Luther King and St. Thomas a Beckett. Doesn't necessarily make it so!
As was said earlier, give me a week and I'll get you
And I'll get you to tell me every bank account you own along with any PINs, have you sign power of attorney over to me and have you load up all of your valuables in my pickup.
Quote:
Tazers are torture no?
If the subject was tied down, and he was being tazed in order to get information, then yes that is torture.
Quote:
It isn't a tool to gain a confession, it is a tool to get the spill. And spill they will. Five minutes later they are fine.
I assume, then, that any technique that does not cause physical injury would be ok with you? As long as the subject is "fine" five minutes later you are OK with it?
Another question... how long were you waterboarded for? I assume only a few minutes? What if you had been waterboarded for hours? Would it still cause no problems? Would you not die from water intoxication?
__________________
Not to mention the fatalities which have occurred recently from Tazers. Which the powers that be "whom we trust implicitly" have assured us are non fatal.
Your point being?
So, the North Vietnamese did get good information and the US war in Vietnam was a war crime. Who are you, Jane Fonda?
It appears we are speaking different languages, so I concede whatever point you are trying to make.
I am stating that in my opinion, torture does work. In my opinion, the US has used torture in the past. In my opinion, the US should not use torture. In my opinion, not ALL methods of interrogation are torture.
We appear to be arguing over where we agree.
Torture does indeed work. The differences lie in how useful or trustworthy the information gained is. If one believes torture is useful one must also agree that witches exist and deserve to be burned. (That's the myth, in reality they were mostly hanged.) You will get people to talk under torture, that much is undisputed, the problem is the information gained is usually the information you wanted verified in the first place.
Agreed not all "harsh" interrogation is torture, but I think waterboarding is one step too far.
Torture does indeed work. The differences lie in how useful or trustworthy the information gained is. If one believes torture is useful one must also agree that witches exist and deserve to be burned. (That's the myth, in reality they were mostly hanged.) You will get people to talk under torture, that much is undisputed, the problem is the information gained is usually the information you wanted verified in the first place.
Agreed not all "harsh" interrogation is torture, but I think waterboarding is one step too far.
Playboypenguin
Moderator
Two totally unrelated things. Tear gas does not incite a fear of death response that drowning does. They are not the same game...and in what training are the routinely waterboarding trainees???Waterboarding is done to personnel in training to get the mystery and therefore fear dealt with. Teargas in basic training is another example.
toybox99615
New member
good old electric shock
what ever happened to this technique? Probably its not torture since it does no permanent dammage. But it sure seemed to be left out of all the discussions over what is and what isn't.
War crimes trials. Since the war is not over we actually do not know if anyone involved from the American side will be tried for water-boarding as a war crime. Just becasue the US says they will not or can not be tried does not mean it won't happen. Remember they are still holding trails for WWII war criminals when they find them.
what ever happened to this technique? Probably its not torture since it does no permanent dammage. But it sure seemed to be left out of all the discussions over what is and what isn't.
War crimes trials. Since the war is not over we actually do not know if anyone involved from the American side will be tried for water-boarding as a war crime. Just becasue the US says they will not or can not be tried does not mean it won't happen. Remember they are still holding trails for WWII war criminals when they find them.
Playboypenguin
Moderator
You are missing the entire point. John McCain signed a "false" confession. He admitted to things he did not do because he knew that is what they wanted to hear. That is the whole point. Information gathered from torture is seen as almost worthless by your average intel analyst because it is impossible to tell fact from fiction because you are just as (if not more) likely to get fiction than fact.Nope. (And how on earth did you reach that conclusion based on what I wrote?) Playboypenguin made the assertion that he, with his 8 years experience in "intelligence", along with John McCain (because he has been tortured) agree that torture does not work. I contest that statement because McCain himself succumbed to torture.
Two totally unrelated things. Tear gas does not incite a fear of death response that drowning does. They are not the same game...and in what training are the routinely waterboarding trainees???
Tear gas suffocation is a recognised phenomenon. SERE training involves waterboarding.
Playboypenguin
Moderator
I have been tear gassed on multiple occasions and it does not illicit anywhere near the same psychological response as waterboarding.Tear gas suffocation is a recognised phenomenon.
They are not arguing that it is a reliable method of obtaining information. They do not have a leg to stand on in that respect since all the experts disagree with them.
And again, these are experts that have never used the technique nor witnessed it in real circumstances.
A small faction is arguing that it should be allowed simply to protect themselves from the upcoming possible international war crimes charges that may be brought against them once the current administration is out of power. They are trying to establish a defense up front before they have to face charges.
Well, if it is a small faction as you suggest, then it should be easy to point to others in the CIA who support your position.
It's their job to support the administration's stance. Just as it is the job of a soldier to kill people when asked. Notice how the only vocal opponents are no longer employed by the government? ex-CIA, ex-FBI, etc. They are only then free to express their true opinions.
Really, because one of the most vocal supporters of waterboarding is ex-CIA, thus not subject to the "pressures" of the administration.
For all of this theory and "evidence" that allegedly supports what you guys are saying, it should be simple to show me someone in the CIA who says it doesn't work.
I have been tear gassed on multiple occasions and it does not illicit anywhere near the same psychological response as waterboarding.
Which may explain why it is more useful in interrogation than using tear gas. Did your experiences involve such copious production of fluid that your lungs were overwhelmed? It can be fatal, and minimising it seems unwise.
Any interrogation technique, even very gentle ones, can result in false admissions. I wouldn't think that quality in itself should invalidate any specific technique.
He admitted to things he did not do because he knew that is what they wanted to hear. That is the whole point. Information gathered from torture is seen as almost worthless by your average intel analyst because it is impossible to tell fact from fiction because you are just as (if not more) likely to get fiction than fact.
But that right there is the point. If waterboarding were no more useful than torture, then analysts wouldn't waste their time with it. There wouldn't be a huge debate about it. The CIA wouldn't call it a irreplacable tool.
Your argument relies on the premise that these people don't care about gathering information, but simply enjoy torturing people. While there may be some sadistic people within the intelligence community, I don't believe that they are this way as a whole. Enough different people within the CIA have come out in support of this tool to eliminate this possibility. There isn't anything to suggest that the director of the CIA (former military might I add) is a sadist or a supporter of torture.
Additionally, ALL the evidence that you have provided addresses torture generally. It does not say anything about waterboarding. I have yet to see a critic of waterboarding who has specifically based his criticism on the fact that waterboarding doesn't work.
While traditional torture may produce less than stellar results, there may be something different about waterboarding that produces different results. To just throw your hands up in the air and say it cant work because its torture doesn't address the issue.
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