Bush vetoes ban on harsh interrogation

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I would suggest that comparing being waterboarded during training to undergoing the same procedure at the hands of a foreign government (with no idea when/if it will stop, or when/if these people will kill you) is probably not too far removed from comparing consensual sex to rape.

The context of an action can make a monumental difference in how psychologically scarring it is to the victim. WhyteP38 admits this when he suggests that even different rape victims might experience different levels of trauma depending on the nature of the crime.

Yet at the same time we've (as in, some members in this thread) decided that since we waterboard our own volunteers in a controlled environment it must be okay to do it to people being held against their will? No difference, right?

The fact that a sexual encounter can be, depending on the circumstances, either one of the best moments in a person's life or their worst nightmare (leaving scars that will never heal) should be enough to suggest that perhaps the context of an experience might matter more than the mechanics. How somebody could not realize that this might also apply to simulated drowning is beyond me.


And before anybody goes there, I have plenty of experience talking with rape victims. More than I would ever want, that's for sure. Anybody here have any loved ones who have been waterboarded while in custody by a hostile foreign power?
 
I agree with you in part and disagree with you in part. But for me, one cannot compare any kind of rape to any kind of waterboarding. Maybe I haven't explained it the best way it can be explained, but I've explained it the best way I can. At this point, folks will have to reach their own conclusions.
 
So I leave for a couple hours and this is where we've gone.

Someone please explain to me why we are talking about rape? Someone please explain to me why we are so desparate to NOT talk about waterboarding?

This crap where we play a comparison game is just that... crap. Waterboarding can be discussed on its own merits without going down every slippery slope or evey irrelevant rabbit hole that exists.

If you folks cant stomach waterboarding, thats fine. No one is going to ask you to do it. There are plenty of folks willing to step up to the plate.

However I don't understand why those of you who object to waterboarding because it isn't effective, are so adamant that it not be used. If its worthless, then its going to phase itself out without any need for legislation. However if its not worthless, then it has its place.



So once again, I'm going to repeat my question. Without talking about rape, iron maidens, car batteries, or anything else, can ANY of you show me some evidence that waterboarding is not effective.

I don't want some academic treatise that doesn't talk about waterboarding AT ALL. I want something, ANYTHING, that speaks to the effectiveness, or lack there of, of waterboarding.


This shouldn't be this hard. After all, if waterboarding is as unreliable as you all say it is, then there should be ample information.
 
Someone please explain to me why we are talking about rape?
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Because a comment was made that compared rape victims to people who were waterboarded. And because like you, I argued that the two are not the same. And like you said, the comparison was crap and needed to be called out as such.

So ... back to our regularly scheduled program.
 
If you folks cant stomach waterboarding, thats fine. No one is going to ask you to do it. There are plenty of folks willing to step up to the plate.
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You seem to be unable to separate "not having the stomach for" from "realizing the ineffectiveness of" waterboarding.
 
I would suggest that comparing being waterboarded during training to undergoing the same procedure at the hands of a foreign government (with no idea when/if it will stop, or when/if these people will kill you) is probably not too far removed from comparing consensual sex to rape.
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I would actually say it is more like comparing role play rape to actual rape. There is no "safe word" in real rape.
 
devils advocate

STAGE 2 your doing well at the baiting game. However finding you unequivocal proof about water boarding is like waiting for testimony of someone who died telling you there is life after death. WB is so effective people have died during it; that's an unequivocal fact.


Its the Bob Jones University school of questions. Answerer the question yes or no: have you stopped beating your dog? No matter how the person responds the implication is and will always be they must be beating their dog when you force them to answer yes they have stopped or no they have not stopped. You don't allow any other responses.
 
Stage,

I am not avoiding your direct question regarding the whole effective/ineffectiveness of waterboarding, I am sure it is effective, but I have problems way before we get to whether it works or not.

First, I brought this up on some other threads regarding it...how can you be sure the person you are subjecting it to knows anything to begin with? Then add to that, how can you be sure that if you get said information you are looking for can be used effectively on our part to prevent <insert any terrorist act>?

I have never been in the military nor subjected to this firsthand so my experience and basis is only based on what I have read regarding it.

We base our country on certain ideals, certain rights, freedoms, etc. that I think this takes those rights away from those who they are meant to protect. I just do not believe the phrase any means necessary is a good enough argument to say we should do things.

Just my .02.

Just curious, were you in the military and subjected to this and that is part of the reason for your opinion on this?
 
I have no general interest in state sponsored sadism, but I do think that americans who are so accustomed to decent behaviour can be too moralistic about what we will and will not do in a conflict. If we are going to have our law regarding a practice shaped by our civil morality and self-esteem, we should be careful to do it accurately.

We base our country on certain ideals, certain rights, freedoms, etc. that I think this takes those rights away from those who they are meant to protect. I just do not believe the phrase any means necessary is a good enough argument to say we should do things.
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I don't think that WBing a foreign non-uniformed combatant for the purpose of obtaining information removes any rights our government is charged with protecting. That doesn't mean that "any means necessary" or the ends justify any means are good standards. If you would like to see the obscenities this breeds, read about chinese prisoner mistreatment, especially of women, soviet era punitive "psychiatry", or taliban cooking people's children alive to gain their "support".

That sort of thing makes facile conclusions about us not being any better than those we fight becuase we've WBed three guys in the last several years more hyperbolic than informative.
 
You seem to be unable to separate "not having the stomach for" from "realizing the ineffectiveness of" waterboarding.
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No, I am completely aware of the difference. Its just that you and others refuse to provide any support for your assertions that its no effective.

STAGE 2 your doing well at the baiting game. However finding you unequivocal proof about water boarding is like waiting for testimony of someone who died telling you there is life after death. WB is so effective people have died during it; that's an unequivocal fact.

Its the Bob Jones University school of questions. Answerer the question yes or no: have you stopped beating your dog? No matter how the person responds the implication is and will always be they must be beating their dog when you force them to answer yes they have stopped or no they have not stopped. You don't allow any other responses.
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Then you haven't bothered to read what I've written. I'm not asking for unequivocal proof. I'm asking for ANY evidence that says waterboarding is not effective.

Thats not baiting, or leading, or anything remotely like "have you stopped beating your wife". Its simply asking people to support their assertions with some evidence.


First, I brought this up on some other threads regarding it...how can you be sure the person you are subjecting it to knows anything to begin with? Then add to that, how can you be sure that if you get said information you are looking for can be used effectively on our part to prevent <insert any terrorist act>?
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While this is no doubt a factor, it doesn't speak to waterboarding, it speaks to apprehending the right people. While there is certianly the possibility of mistakes being made, if we are going to be honest with ourselves, the CIA isn't wasting time with low level lackeys. The people sitting in the (no longer) secret prisons aren't just run of the mill al quaeda. They are the one's with information that we want.


We base our country on certain ideals, certain rights, freedoms, etc. that I think this takes those rights away from those who they are meant to protect. I just do not believe the phrase any means necessary is a good enough argument to say we should do things.
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But we don't do things by any means necessary. If we did, the CIA would be taking cordless drills to knee caps and hooking up people to die-hards.

Furthermore, the freedoms and rights that our nation has do not apply to these people. International conventions of war don't apply to these people. We aren't violating anyone's rights because they don't have any rights to be violated.


Just curious, were you in the military and subjected to this and that is part of the reason for your opinion on this?
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Nope, never in the military. The basis for my opinions includes my own personal feelings as well as the opinions of family and friends who have served in the military as well as the intelligence community.

In all honesty, the problem we are facing today isn't whether we should waterboard or how mean we should be when fighting a war. Its the media. For the longest time, our government and our military was able to operate without scrutiny and obstruction. Today, thats simply not the case. Now, in addition to considering strategic and tactical consequences, these folks have to factor in public perception. Thats not how thing should be done if you want them done right.
 
No, I am completely aware of the difference. Its just that you and others refuse to provide any support for your assertions that its no effective.
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What? Are you blind? I, and others, have pointed out educational manuals that express the useless nature of torture. We have also shown you govt and private studies that express the same opinion...that torture is not valuable as a means of extracting reliable information and in fact interferes with more successful methods.

So far you are basing your entire argument on the word of Bush (completely unreliable), a man that first claimed to witness it's effectiveness (even though the information gathered has not proven to have panned out at all) and then changed his story to say that he had not actually witnessed it but had been told about it, and alleged "anonymous" statements.
 
In all honesty, the problem we are facing today isn't whether we should waterboard or how mean we should be when fighting a war. Its the media. For the longest time, our government and our military was able to operate without scrutiny and obstruction. Today, thats simply not the case. Now, in addition to considering strategic and tactical consequences, these folks have to factor in public perception. Thats not how thing should be done if you want them done right.
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I would completely agree with that. I do not think we "ordinary" citizens know the half of what happens currently, has happened in the past, etc. no tin-foil hatting, but I highly doubt those who were involved in such things in the past or current are posters on an internet forum.

That sort of thing makes facile conclusions about us not being any better than those we fight becuase we've WBed three guys in the last several years more hyperbolic than informative.
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See above, but do you really think we have not done things on the same line as waterboarding and possibly worse to more than three people in the last several years?

I can't think of the shrink term for it, but I remember reading that part of the problem most Americans, possibly me included??, is that we want to say that we don't think it should happen, but deep down we are ok with as long as we dont know about it, dissassociative something or rather. It makes us think that we are not responsible morally for it if something was to go awry.
 
What? Are you blind? I, and others, have pointed out educational manuals that express the useless nature of torture. We have also shown you govt and private studies that express the same opinion...that torture is not valuable as a means of extracting reliable information and in fact interferes with more successful methods.
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Show me a SINGLE source that you have provided that talks about the ineffectiveness of waterboarding.
 
Show me a SINGLE source that you have provided that talks about the ineffectiveness of waterboarding.
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So, despite what you said earlier, you argument is that waterboarding is not torture...despite the fact that the people whose opinions you seem to value admit that it is indeed torture and the fact that it is definately torture as defined by both UN and USA official definitions.
 
The effectiveness is a given. It works pure and simple. That is what started the discussion about people that have experienced waterboarding. The effectiveness is why we shouldn't be discarding it. It works but vilianizing it has been getting political capital so it's being attacked.
 
The effectiveness is a given. It works pure and simple. That is what started the discussion about people that have experienced waterboarding. The effectiveness is why we shouldn't be discarding it. It works but vilianizing it has been getting political capital so it's being attacked.
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Effective at what? Getting people to say whatever they have to say to get it to stop? That I will grant you.

Unfortunately, their or more successful methods that torture interferes with as well.
 
So, despite what you said earlier, you argument is that waterboarding is not torture...despite the fact that the people whose opinions you seem to value admit that it is indeed torture and the fact that it is definately torture as defined by both UN and USA official definitions.
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I personally don't believe waterboarding is torture. However what I believe is irrelevant. How waterboarding is classified is also irrelevant. None of this has anything to do with whether watreboarding is effective at making uncooperative terrorists produce useful information.

You seem to think that if you can get me to concede that waterboarding is torture that you can then deem it ineffective with all of your material that discusses torture. Thats a horrible argument. You are trying to dismiss something by association. Thats a blatant fallacy.

Whether it is effective is a simply a factual question. It is wholly independent of whether waterboarding is classified as torture.

If you disagree, show me something that says otherwise.
 
I personally don't believe waterboarding is torture. However what I believe is irrelevant. How waterboarding is classified is also irrelevant. None of this has anything to do with whether watreboarding is effective at making uncooperative terrorists produce useful information.
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If torture is ineffective and waterboarding is torture, how is that not relevant? I am having a hard time wrapping my head around that kind of disconnected logic.
 
I don't see why y'all are wasting sympathy on these guys. They want to annihilate us off the face of the Earth and y'all want to baby them? Who cares what they think of us. They torture our people and then behead them for cryin out loud and y'all don't even want to waterboard them for info.:confused: I'm sorry but I don't have one iota of feeling for these people. If it gets information I don't care what's done to them. If they give erroneous info then do worse to them then execute them. All I've got to say about battery chargers to the genitals is red is positive, black is negative.
 
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