Bush vetoes ban on harsh interrogation

Status
Not open for further replies.
A close friend of mine was raped repeatedly by her stepfather. To say she's none the worse for wear for the experience is insulting. If you truly believe what you wrote, try convincing a rape victim of it.
Click to expand...
But the point is that in that case psychological trauma is viewed as damaging as physical trauma. Why not in other cases?
 
I agree completely with everything in the above post by PBP.
Click to expand...
If torture was actually effective I would be all for it. I would consider the benefits to outweigh the negative effects it it has on our country socially and politically.

But as it stands, torture is not only an ineffective information gathering method, but it also degrades our standing in the free world, shakes the belief of our citizens in their govt, and opens a whole pandora's box of potential abuses.
 
But the point is that in that case psychological trauma is viewed as damaging as physical trauma. Why not in other cases?
Click to expand...
There isn't much more I can tell you other than the two experiences are not comparable. There's no way to prove that over the Internet, so you either have to accept the statement as true or discover the truth yourself.

You could talk with military people who have been waterboarded and get their perspective, then go to a rape victim and get her experience, and then compare the two. My guess is that a military person who has been waterboarded will more likely talk to you about the experience than would a rape victim - if you have the courage to even ask the rape victim (which in itself should tell you what you want to know). Personally, I would feel comfortable discussing waterboarding with military people - been there, done that - but I wouldn't feel comfortable discussing rape with a rape victim. It's not a good discussion.
 
You could talk with military people who have been waterboarded and get their perspective, then go to a rape victim and get her experience, and then compare the two
Click to expand...
That is complete illogical. Despite everything that is done to us while we are in training, we all know with 100% certainty that we are being kept safe. That is not the case in a rape or if you are actually being tortured by an enemy power. You know at any moment they could actually maim or kill you and that makes all the difference.

Being put in solitary while in the military is boring but not scary. Sitting alone in a small room in the custody of an enemy power, not knowing if the door will open at any moment and someone will step in and shoot you or worse, is a completely different story.

Walking through a dry fire simulation is stressful because you want to do well. Walking into a truly hostile arena is terrifying because you might die.
 
That is complete illogical. Despite everything that is done to us while we are in training, we all know with 100% certainty that we are being kept safe. That is not the case in a rape or if you are actually being tortured by an enemy power. You know at any moment they could actually kill you and that makes all the difference.
Click to expand...
What's completely illogical is thinking rape and waterboarding are similar.
 
different social stigmas

WhyteP38 there is a great social difference between a woman who has been raped and a person who has been water-boarded. Society basic puts up a block that looks at the rape victim as involved in some kind of unsavory behaviour. A few religions (even in the US) treat a women who was raped as less than a desirable part of their congregation. I don't believe you ever hear of someone being frowned upon by society for having been water-boarded as part of some training technique. You just can not compare the psychological dammage of society on the two individuals: one's a whore and the other a hero.
 
Despite everything that is done to us while we are in training, we all know with 100% certainty that we are being kept safe.
Click to expand...
You've never been waterboarded, and you've never trained in military air combat. That's what's clear.
 
What's completely illogical is thinking rape and waterboarding are similar.
Click to expand...

I have never been raped or waterboarded, but I have heard experts say that rape is about control. That seems to be why waterboarding is used also. As a tool of control. Specifically, the person doing the waterboarding is trying to coerce the person into providing information. So aren't they more similar than you think?
 
You've never been waterboarded, and you've never trained in military air combat. That's what's clear
Click to expand...
I am not saying they do not have similar issues. I am saying your method of comparing an actual rape to the experience of a controlled training experience is not valid.

And if you think you are not being kept safe in training enviroments, then you have never been a part of any training. Safety is rule number one and stressed above all else in such activities.
 
WhyteP38 there is a great social difference between a woman who has been raped and a person who has been water-boarded. Society basic puts up a block that looks at the rape victim as involved in some kind of unsavory behaviour. A few religions (even in the US) treat a women who was raped as less than a desirable part of their congregation. I don't believe you ever hear of someone being frowned upon by society for having been water-boarded as part of some training technique. You just can not compare the psychological dammage of society on the two individuals: one's a whore and the other a hero.
Click to expand...
Well, that's my point. You're right; they're not the same. Which is what I've been saying. Anyone who wants to compare waterboarding to something should find something else to compare it to, because the comparison to rape doesn't work.
 
I have never been raped or waterboarded, but I have heard experts say that rape is about control.
Click to expand...
That's part of it. But it's not the entirety of it, nor is it always the most significant part of it. A lot depends on the age of the victim and the relationship of the victim to the perpetrator. A 7-year-old girl raped by her stepfather repeatedly suffers a whole host of problems different in kind and degree than, say, a 21-year-old woman raped by her date, or raped by a total stranger.

I don't know how prevalent this is, but in my experience the biggest factor is a feeling that the victim is somehow responsible, even if she was 7-year-old girl raped by a 40+ -year-old man. The only "control" aspect I can see is the victim thinking she controlled the perpetrator into committing his crime. I wouldn't label that as control, but maybe it is in some definition I haven't encountered.

But for me, the bottom line is still that the two experiences are not comparable.
 
WhyteP38 then we are in agreement and I missed your implication.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I'm not sure how clear my implication was, so maybe it wasn't clear enough. Some subjects hit so close to home that emotions begin to take a toll.
 
And if you think you are not being kept safe in training enviroments, then you have never been a part of any training. Safety is rule number one and stressed above all else in such activities.
Click to expand...
Training is in "safer" environments than actual combat, but mistakes happen. I lost a lot of acquaintences when two P-3s collided during night ASW training off the Southern California coast.
 
Training is in "safer" environments than actual combat, but mistakes happen. I lost a lot of acquaintences when two P-3s collided during night ASW training off the Southern California coast
Click to expand...
Mistakes happen to people in their every day lives, but when you are in a controlled training environment you are supposedly safer than you are in your own home. Every scenerio is planned for and every precaution is taken. If you have even been part of staging a live fire exercise you realize how many days of effort go into making a 30-60 minute training session as safe as humanly possible.

Knowing that up front makes a training exercise entirely different than a real situation.
 
Mistakes happen to people in their every day lives, but when you are in a controlled training environment you are supposedly safer than you are in your own home.
Click to expand...
Like I said before, you obviously don't have a military aviation background. What you can control in your environment is severely limited. Every preflight is a literally nuts and bolts scrutiny of the plane. Flight school drills into your head "attention to detail" and "a simple missing screw can get you killed." I don't know about your home, but at my home a simple missing screw won't get you killed.

And even if you do everything right, you really have no way to control for something like a hydraulic pump self-destructing 20 minutes after takeoff during a late-night training flight. Again, I don't know about your home, but at my home I don't have any failed hydraulic pumps putting my life at risk.
 
On that point, you are completely correct. I do not like planes.
Click to expand...
After 2,000 flight hours, I like to look at them, but I've lost my enthusiasm to fly in them.

(On a side note, the safety stats regarding planes compared to cars are based on number of miles travelled, not number of flights. When you compare accident rates based on number of flights v. number of trips by car, the results are different.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top