Breaking up a fight

Mixed feelings, here

I've done something very similar.

I'm a regular at a pub here in town that I like a lot. It has a great atmosphere and a great group of people that I hang out with. I've only ever seen the beginnings of one fight there, and I've only heard of 3 total fights in its history.

I broke up the one fight I saw beginning. It was very easy to talk down one guy while my buddy talked down the other.

That being said, there was no physical altercation at that point. No pushing, no fists.

I would still break up a fight in that particular bar, though, because I consider it "mine" in a way. No, I'm not armed there, and never will be. Too much potential trouble. But in a way, it's part of my living room, or my back yard, or something like that. I guess that makes me a lush.:)

If you see something like a fight in a part of town that feels like it is "yours" and you want to protect it by attempting to de-escalate, I respect that.

Going commando because you feel invincible since you're packing heat is just dumb.

I hope it was just loyalty to your neighborhood and a desire to not have someone else's night ruined that caused you to break it up. But good job, nonetheless. No one got hurt and everyone went home happy, more or less.
 
Cross the street. Keep walking. Call 911 if you like.
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That is the best advise in this entire thread. Mvpel...YOU and your friend are the ones who brought pistols to a fistfight. You were in no danger. You are one lucky individual. That explosive situation could have gone very wrong very quickly. I dont post here very often, hope I didnt butt in to bad....
 
Not a good idea to intervene on this one. Anything you shout at them, anything from "knock it off!" to "your momma wears army boots" will be considered confrontational by some already P.O.'d people, and like others have said, bringing a gun into the picture, even in a high retention holster, ain't a good idea.

I once tried to break up a fight (on duty) between two women. Typical cat fight, except one cat had claws in the form of keys clenched in her fist. I think she was trying to hit the other woman, but she got my face instead, and opened up two inches of that to within a half inch of my eye :( . Good intentions gone wrong. Next time (on duty) a liberal application of OC solved the problem ;) .

Now off duty? After I call it in, I turn to whoever's with me and say "Five bucks on the big guy!" :D Hey, you pay good money to sit back and watch this stuff on pay-per-view! :D (And you ain't gettin' paid to be a referee ;) )
 
Get as much distance from strangers fighting as you can. They may be armed with firearms and blades as well. Don't let carrying make you over confident. If anything, you have to be more cautious. Walking out of a lighted place into a darker street is always dangerous.

One has to be careful not to escalate a fight. Speak calmly and confidently if at all. Yelling at unreasoned idiots fighting in the street is sometimes like pouring gas on a fire. If they had sense, they wouldn't be fighting in the street.

Don't forget to use the cell phone. The unarmed people exiting with you should have been told to go back inside the restaurant and have the proprieter call 911. Keep yourself between the unarmed and the threats. If your friends know you're carrying, don't have sense to stay the hell out of the way, and will not listen to you when you tell them something for their own good, get new friends.

A CCL holder is not a law enforcer. Your primary reason for carrying is to protect yourself and your loved ones from a lethal threat. If you use force to break up a fight between two strangers such as spraying them, you're committing a crime.

Spray doesn't always stop an attack, either. It may even escalate it. The best stuff I've seen is the OC/CS mixture. Spray an attacker in the nose and eyes. The spray will get the sprayer particularly in confined places or when the wind isn't cooperative. It may prove to be a big handicap if it doesn't end the fight.

Glad you made out all right. Thanks for sharing.
 
good for you mvpel, however, if it were me, i'd probably have left the situation alone.

about the only way i could see myself intervening, was if there was a sizable disparity of force involved, as in a 300 lb muscle head pounding on a 140 lb wet noodle.
or supposing the combatants are of equal size, if the fight gets one sided, and becomes 'kick the guy while hes down', then i may feel the need to get the 'victor' to back off. one of my friends had this happen to him, got suckerpunched, beat down to the ground, and got his head kicked around, bad enough he was in a coma for a few weeks.

one thing our society has forgotten is that when two men duke it out, there needs to be a sense of honor/respect. but that applies to just about everything as well, something that is lacking in almost every individual i have come across.
 
I think the key comment in the original post is the need for more training. Qualified FOF take you through such scenarios. Insights SVT course, an OPS course taught by Steve Moses, KRtraining and the NTI all give you some insight into what is a good action. Most informative is when you are a screw up and get killed.

For this scenario, I'm with the call the cops point of view. From a distance.
 
Good point spiff. If you see someone getting their head stomped into a curb... that's a reason to step in. You could be saving someone from death or serious bodily harm (brain damage?).

It's a fine and scary line. You're still introducing a firearm into a violent situation... but if someone is lying on the ground, possibly unconscious, who's about to have their head stomped into a piece of concrete...

I'd hope someone would stop that attack if it were me on the ground.

There's no default setting for encounters such as this, other than to stay away unless it's absolutely necessary that you get involved.
 
When I used to Bounce, I had to break up fights that were getting ready to blow and full-on brawls all the time, sometimes several a night depending on where I was working. Always hated it. You can never see everyones hands, especially in a dark bar, or club. I ALWAYS expected a knife in the kidneys, a broken bottle to the eye, or a gunshot into the back of my head.

I was duty bound to intervene even if I didn't want too, and it sucked being forced into a dangerous situation with unstable players. I would give the bruisers a quick look-over to see who was the aggressor, and step as quickly as possible to get between them before the first punch. I would try to direct my words to the aggressor, and while talking to him, I would try to peel him off and get him to a neutral area to cool down.

If it blew up with me between them, I would blast the bartender or manager with my flashlight, and they would hit the button for 911, which was on speed dial, then they would reinforce me with whatever staff was available. Most of the time this worked fine, occasionally it didn't. Thats when the OC can comes out, but mostly as a last resort. OC will get in the ventilation, and will kill a clubs business for the night. Everyone starts coughing, eyes start running, it can be a real mess.

I have sucker punched really aggressive guys to knock them out of the picture and stop a bad problem from getting worse, but usually just a real hard vice-pinch, or sharp blow right on the brachial nerves of the collarbone would make 'em fade... usually. I'm retired now, and glad of it.
 
Oh, just to add... now that I am not doing it for money, I will usually watch two guys fight without getting involved. This policy ends if one guy is severley getting stomped by the other, or a weapon comes into play. I refuse to stand by and watch a man beat another to death. No matter the size of the fracas, the Police are getting called to deal with it because thats what they are paid to do. That being said, two men or women, settling their differences with mutual, non-life threatening combat is not always a bad thing. I am not a cop, nor do I want to be. **** happens, you better be ready for it when it does.
 
You are not a police officer.
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+1
Call it in, unless someone is taking undue advantage and there is a life in danger leave it alone and wait for the people who get paid to handle it and have more protection from lawsuits.
 
the only fights I've ever broken up

...have been between my children, preferably when they were shorter than me. Strangers with testosterone poisoning? No thanks.

Springmom
 
The good Capt. has it covered.

Why risk bodily injury breaking up a fight between two morons?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

12-34hom.
 
You should have double tapped them both. Then one in the head for each that would have brought an end to the ruckus!;) You did have hollow points in your weapon right. If not you might want to shoot them four times then.;)
 
I consider myself a "to the rescue" and fiesty type guy. I wake up everyday hoping for the opportunity to put some thug in his place for messing with a GG. (ok, so that's a stretch)

I love a fight (actually being in one) and helping out a good guy in a bad situation, but I'ld of let it go and just called the police. I am too young to CCW, but still, unarmed, I'ld of never got involved in that type situation.

With a CW, you provided the opportunity to escilate the situation enormously. Stay out would be my thoughts. You intentions are commendable, however.

-Derek
 
I agree with most of the other posters in here. If two strangers are arguing or fighting, best to stay out of it or at least keep your distance if it moves into your space. Your gun might very well get grabbed (this could happen even to a policeman...and has in the past I'm sure). Call 911 probably a good idea depending on the situation.

That being said, gun or no gun, I think in society today we tolerate too much offensiveness and call it "minding our own business." In a certain sense we are all cops (gun or no gun, I am not advocating CHLers playing dirty harry) in that we are our brothers keeper. We all live in society together, no man even family is an island unto themselves. 50 years ago if a man was using profanity in public (talking real loud at a table across the restraunt for example)...especially with ladies and children around, real men would approach him and tell him plainly to watch their mouth or that person might just get a punch in the nose. There was no "Call the cops" or "go to court" or "freedom of speech, I can say whatever the %^&#@ I want" the problem was solved quickly and by the public in general if a cop wasn't around. Usually it wouldn't escalate into a brawl, people knew to behave. If it did result in a fight, the jerk just walked away with a good reason to mind his manners in the future and court officials back then had more common sense and probably wouldn't even waste docket time with it. NOW profanity, and worse, is tolerated and accepted. NOW the only thing people are afraid of doing in public is saying something politically incorrect and being assailed by some self righteous self appointed thought policeman. But someone can use all kinds of four letter words or shout profanity to each other and it's "oh just mind your own business" "just ignore it" or "no big deal, call the cops if you want." How backwards we've become :barf:
I'm not saying we should all right every wrong in the world, as XavierBreath said we can't do that. You do want to be discerning and prudent in what battles you choose. But, we do have a responsibility in our own circle to set an example and be a part of the community we live in and not retreat from it.
 
Don't wrestle if you carry

Just imagine one of the guys grabbed your jacket and discovered your gun(s)....pulled it our of your holster....

Never get into phsyical contact distance if you carry a gun. Once you are that close, you can't control your gun.

If it really heats up, thats when I think of a warning shot. I know that this is very unpolular in the US, but here in Europe we all think of it as a live-saving option. It's a very sobering thing.

However, if no immediate life-threatening danger is present, just calling the police would maybe have done the job. Pull your cellphone and tell the bullys that you are calling the cops now. That should do it. If not, go call them really.
 
I have to say that I was disgusted when I read the majority of replies here. I agree with Doug.38PR too much of turning a blind eye and making excuses for it going on. Everyone saying, just call the cops let them handle it and go on. That’s something to be ashamed of. I hate to break it to you people but legality and morality are mutually exclusive. Laws are created to when there is a need to fill a gap in a failed code of morality. When a society is moral enough and no one even does certain reprehensible acts then there is no need to create laws concerning things that aren’t even problems to begin with. When a society reaches the point that there are laws for everything and it is the deity of the police and only the police to handle every situation it is because the moral fiber of that society had degraded and the law (the police) have had to step in and fill all the gaps left. I’m not saying to go be superman but that is not what the original poster did here. He did the right thing in intervening and he knew he may have made mistakes in how he did it and asked for advice on next time. I’m not saying people should walk around acting as if they are the law. What I’m saying is that if it is within your power to help someone being wronged and you do nothing to help them then you share in the guilt of the one doing the wrong. Calling 911 may be the appropriate response but if a situation is severe enough to warrant a call to 911 then it is severe enough that you should be prepared to intervene if it becomes necessary to do so before the cops actually show up. As far as escalating the situation goes. . . Yes it’s possible that when you step in you could be attacked or that a knife may be drawn. But I promise you that the guy who pulls a knife on your for trying to peacefully break up a fight is gonna be the same guy who pulls that knife when he gets the upper hand because no one tried to step in. The fight that escalates when you try to break it up is the one that would escalate anyway, and that’s the one that needs to be stopped. Once again I’m not saying that having a gun makes you Superman but it should not prevent you from doing what you would or should do otherwise. As a matter or fact it should give you the assurance that if the SHTF you will be able to defend yourself. Not to mention that if stepping into a station like that with a gun on you is stupid then I guess all cops must be pretty stupid. They step in on brawls with loaded guns all the time. That’s not safe after all so maybe calling the cops is a bad idea too. Or maybe cops shouldn’t carry loaded guns. I remember reading a thread here on TFL not too long ago about safeties on carry guns. The general response is that safeties are just one more thing to mess you up and can get you killed. I say that’s what training is for. I’ve read that it takes something like .14 seconds to disengage a safety on the draw and like 14 seconds for a BG to disengage a safety on an unfamiliar firearm. This was brought up in the thread and the response was that it wasn’t applicable for civilians because weapon retention was a non-issue for concealed carry civilians. Something is wrong with this picture. Either weapon retention is an issue or it isn’t and if getting a gun with a safety on it and actually training with it so that you are adept at using your gun and others won’t be then I guess that’s just what needs to be done.
Now in conclusion if carrying a firearm makes you afraid to do what you would or should do otherwise then maybe you shouldn’t carry. Maybe some people should rethink how you carry. Is your weapon holstered in such a way it could be easily taken by someone else? (i.e. with the butt facing forward like in a shoulder or cross draw holster) Maybe your gun should have a safety on it and if you are worried that having a safety could hinder you maybe you should practice with it until it isn’t a worry any longer. We should all be willing to step in on these kinds of situations. We don’t want to be creating fights or making them worse rather we should use the minimum amount of force necessary to resolve the situation. The sooner you act the easier it will be to resolve a situation. Waiting till it is out of control is not the time to step in. You may start by just telling the guys to knock it off. If that doesn’t work threaten to call the cops. If they don’t knock it off if that doesn’t work actually call 911 and let them know that you have done so. If the situation warrants a 911 call it is severe enough you need to stick around until the cops get there and make sure no one becomes in danger or grave bodily harm. If it looks like the cops aren’t going to be there any time soon and someone is loosing badly them maybe step in. But use your head if you do. Get someone else to help you break it up. Stay at arms length keep your gun-side away from the fighters be prepared to draw if a weapon is pulled. And if someone does pull a weapon and you draw and they still attempt to attack you then you aren’t dealing with a couple punks scuffling you are dealing with someone who isn’t afraid to try and take someone else’s life for doing nothing more than standing up for what is right. And that’s the kind of person I have no sympathy for when they get shot.
 
the problem was solved quickly and by the public in general if a cop wasn't around.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there was also a time when men were lynched in the town square for offenses as vulgar as touching a woman of another race. Or being accused of the same.
I understand what you are saying Doug, and God knows sometimes I would like to just pop a few idiots in the nose myself, but it's a different world now. If good people bloodied noses for profanity, the result would be good people filling the jails today. I'm not sure there is happy medium.

DTakas,
All I can say is I am an older and wiser man than I once was. I got there by seeing friends making horrible mistakes, making my own mistakes, and learning.

I will not depend on mechanical gun safeties for my safety.
I will not depend on straps for retention.
I will not jump into fights I can avoid.
The best weapon retention device is distance.
The best way to survive a fight is avoidance.

I suffered a lot of bruises, knots, blood loss, and a couple of funerals learning my lessons. If two punks on the sidewalk desire the same education at the school of hard knocks, then cest la vie. Let them have at it. I figure I can count on folks like you to jump in and get educated as well. Me, I'm crossing the street and I will be sitting at home having a rum and coke while you are explaining your actions at the precinct house. I do not think my character and integrity rests on my response to two punks on the street.

I have no stake in this hoodlum fight on the street. No stake at all. Other than idealistic ethical theory, can you give me any concrete reason I should intervene? If not, save your disgust for another time. It's offensive here. Otherwise, we should simply agree to disagree.

Oh, a few spaces between your thoughts make them a lot more readable.
 
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