Break in period necessary??

[PSP]

Parts get seated from recoil in a way that only shooting can do.

Seated? What does that mean? Which parts get seated?

Springs get "worked in", in general, the whole thing gets used to working together.

"Worked in"? Could you explain what that means? How does the spring change? Does it get weaker, stronger, smaller, longer?

Most new pistols are fired at the factory to test them. They are put in a vise and the number of rounds fired is what you see on your target. The most I've ever seen is six. The term Break in implies there is a manner in which the pistol must be handled early on to get optimum performance or long life. When terms such as "seated" and "worked in" are used I can't relate them to a firearm. Maybe on a chain saw, where you have to find the right bar tension and the cutting chain actually does change...but not on a gun.

Auto pistols are a complex balance of many forces, all of which need to be within fairly narrow ranges in order for things to work right.

If the range of operation is that narrow...and if the pistol fires at the factory...and if there is zero wear on all parts... isn't that the best a particular gun will ever be? If the range of operation is so narrow, wouldn't seating and working in change that narrow range for the worse?

People often mention triggers "smoothing out". I have to confess I don't really buy that either, although I'm more open to that because there are a few parts that actually wear against each other. Polishing each other though is a bit of a stretch IMO. I frankly can't remember what the trigger felt like 10 years ago. The longest I've owned one pistol is 41 years, and the trigger feels the same to me now as it did 41 years ago. Who could really tell? That would be a much to subtle change.

The main parts that really have frictional contact are the rails and slide and that is the main point of lubrication attention. Even there I've never seen where any change occurs after shooting a few hundred rounds. The whole break in concept makes no sense to me. If the gun worked on round #2, it should work on round #200, or #2000 for that matter...and going down hill all time...not getting better.

What does improve is the operator, while experimenting with ammo, grip style, grip force, lubes, trigger finger style, etc, etc. These are the variables that I see as effecting a new pistol. The pistol itself either works, by virtue of good design and competent execution of the build, or it doesn't. Becoming familiar with a new pistol is one thing...the pistol actually changing in some noticable manner in a few hundred rounds is more than I can accept.

As an example; look to the HK line Vs. Keltec. HKs work right out of the box, a design executed very well. The Keltec... a good design, executed poorly. Take the time to examine a HK P7 ramp and tell me if perhaps it need polishing. Yet, the pistol works. How could that be? If any gun ever needed a fluff and buff it is the P7. I rest my case Your Honor.

Exhibit A;

 

[Dingoboyx]

I do believe.....

springs and things do change slightly their strength and length to a small degree on extended useage. Springs when brand new tend to be a lot stiffer until they have been worked thru their range of motion several (many times) For example, I bought a new SA with a pair of 10 round mags. Even with the loading helper, I could not get the 10th round in one of the mags for the life of me. I asked my gunshop about it, the owner said to leave it at 9 rounds for a while, and leave it (the mag) loaded with 9 when it is not being used. Sure enough, a week or 2 later, the 10th round goes in now (I guess I ran in the mag)

As I said before, the pistol is a mass produced machine. It is made up of 34+ parts that were made to close tolerances on a variety of other machines and later assembled into the machine we love, the gun. It would be impossible to expect that every part can just be assembled together, and they will all fit, move and work perfectly from the word go. Where fine parts rub and work together, they get used to (seat themselves) against each other and microscopic roughness gets smoothed off, raw machined steel, like in the breech can have these little valleys filled with microscopic carbon dust and make it easier for the extractor to pull out the spent case.

If you dont like to call it 'running in' maybe call it a 'settling in' period? But I firmly believe any machine (car, lawnmower, chainsaw, washing machine etc) needs to run its cycle to get every part to get used to 'playing the game' and to me, guns are no different. You hear people saying "my pistol/revolver has a nice tight action" meaning it isnt worn out. This conglomeration of parts assembled to become your gun, might start out a bit 'too tight' to allow for it to 'wear in', without 'wearing out' in the process.

My gun shop, when I bought my 23" marlin 44 mag advised me to clean the bore and leave it dry, shoot one, clean again, shoot 2, clean again, check bore, shoot five, clean again, shoot another five..... then it should be right to shoot as normal.... I havent read this in the Marlin manual, but I concider it good advice, which I took, and whenever I get a new gun, I follow this same procedure.... it works for me

IMO, some guns when new might be a bit cranky when brand new and a couple of hundred rounds should sort it out, any more than this, IMO you must have a bigger problem with the gun, so send it back to the factory, you were unlucky but should get it back fixed, because it would likely go to a real live person who can investigate/fix/correct the issue.

Just my untrained opinion, sounds about right to me, and works for me

 

[Hellbilly5000]

If there is no such thing as a break in period then please explain to me why my new ruger p95 had an fte every 2 to 3 magazines for the first 250 to 300 rounds. I would break it down and clean it then fire another 45 rounds it would jam i would clean. and so on for about 300 rounds now I have no no fte's. If thats not a break in period I dont know what is

 

[DougP]

break or broke - which

it's a brand new gun, it's expected that there may be some roughness to the action

I STILL expect it to work just fine when I take it to the range- I am not buying a "kit" I am buying an end product. This is what America is built on. If you make something that is not as good as someone else- you go out of business. Never-- Never buy something that you "know" or "expect " not to work. What's a matter with you !!!!
I am not asking Katy to bar the door, but I don't like chasing red herring either. Wake up and expect something great in what you spend your hard earned money on. -- OR just buy a kit and deal with it-----

 

[ISP2605]

"Worked in"? Could you explain what that means? How does the spring change? Does it get weaker, stronger, smaller, longer?

Do a search of the webs for noobees who bought their first new Glock and they post the question they can't get their mag fully loaded. That works out after a time as the springs set.

and if there is zero wear on all parts... isn't that the best a particular gun will ever be? ....People often mention triggers "smoothing out". I have to confess I don't really buy that either,

Nope, not close. When there is zero wear there is no mating of the surfaces. Nothing comes from the factory completely smooth surfaces. There will be tool marks however slight. If you don't buy triggers smoothing out then you really haven't shot an old target gun that has had thousands upon thousands of rds thru it and hours on end of dry fire. If you have then you would see the difference.

Even there I've never seen where any change occurs after shooting a few hundred rounds. The whole break in concept makes no sense to me. If the gun worked on round #2, it should work on round #200, or #2000 for that matter...and going down hill all time...not getting better.

Absolutely just the opposite. I gave the example of the PPKs we use to issue. Few would run 100% in the first 50 rds. After 300 or so they would usually get surfaces mated and the sharp edges worn to where they would be 100% reliable.

So maybe a gun will work 100% right out of the box, maybe it won't. You won't know for sure until you run some rds thru it. The time not to find out if your gun isn't 100% is in a defensive shooting situation. There's no time out and it's too late to be figuring out if the mag is bad, the tolerances were too close, the spring was defective, the pin was faulty, or a gun didn't like a particular design of ammo. I've seen all those on new guns.

 

[alloy]

Since the idea of mated metal parts polishing out minute maufacturing imperfections in a slurry or breaking in should be relegated to the category of wive's tales, i assume the myth of firearms ever wearing out has also been finally disproven?

 

[Dingoboyx]

Doug

It's not a case of buying a gun expecting it not to work, but as I said (like a broken record) it is a mass produced machine, built on a budget, so you can afford to buy it (& competition with other manufacturers) and you MIGHT possibly have some initial 'Teething problems'

Just my opinion

+1 Hellbilly

My P22 was exactly the same, a bit cranky for the 1st 300 or so, now about 5000 rounds with no hiccups

 

[PSP]

If you don't buy triggers smoothing out then you really haven't shot an old target gun that has had thousands upon thousands of rds thru it

To the contrary, I mentioned my oldest pistol, one I've owned and shoot countless rounds through. Does a 41 year old Colt Woodsman Match Target count? This is why I don't buy the trigger arguement...and besides, the discussion is about break in, not thousands of rounds and years of use.

Nope, not close. When there is zero wear there is no mating of the surfaces.

What surface gets mated? What does that mean? Do you imply it wasn't mated when it left the factory?

Can anyone give an example of what part, changes in what way, that improves the function of the pistol to correctly operate. So far all I hear are Obama like platitudes and "noobees" operator errors. All I'm asking for is a fact, an example, of what is accomplished during the break in period. Perhaps a picture is worth 1000 words, but even the King of break in discipline...Kahr... offers no real explaination of what is supposed to happen during the 200 rounds they insist upon.

I've been shooting and carrying pistols probably longer than most of you have been alive, so I'm not a "noobee". Some of my guns are older than most of you I would guess. This is my observation over those decades and scores of guns...they either work right out of the box (within expected limits as no gun is 100% forever), or they don't. Provided nothing breaks, a pistol reliability is influenced more by the outside variables than it is by any mating, seating, setting, working out, or any other mechanical operation that is altered by shooting the weapon.

As I said before, the pistol is a mass produced machine. It is made up of 34+ parts that were made to close tolerances on a variety of other machines and later assembled into the machine we love, the gun. It would be impossible to expect that every part can just be assembled together, and they will all fit, move and work perfectly from the word go. Where fine parts rub and work together, they get used to (seat themselves) against each other and microscopic roughness gets smoothed off, raw machined steel, like in the breech can have these little valleys filled with microscopic carbon dust and make it easier for the extractor to pull out the spent case.

Dingoboyx did in good faith try to answer my questions, and I appreciate that, but this part...

It would be impossible to expect that every part can just be assembled together, and they will all fit, move and work perfectly from the word go.

...is proven wrong by the many pistols that do operate from the start with no problems. How can that be? It is so because of the higher quality execution of the builder and/or the design. Basic quality is operator independent...the operator cannot improve the gun...he can only degrade it.

The original question concerned break in of a new pistol. Does a pistol change over use? Yes. Can parts get smoother, more lubricious and polished? Yes. Do springs change? Yes, some more than others. I concede change occurs. What I don't concede is that it occurs as quickly in an hour, by shooting a couple hundred rounds. Were that true we would see guns wear out much to easily and fast. Nor do I concede that microscopic flaws are enough to overcome the forces generated by a modern propellant.

I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree. This is what discussion boards are all about. Thank you all for the maturity and civility shown. This was a good example of how it should be IMO.

 

[Singlesix1954]

I grew up shooting "Colt Woodsman and Pre Woodsman". They were made in a time when craftmanship was the norm and all were hand tuned in the QC of it's time. Now in the days of the CNC Machine the craftsman has changed to a person who has the ability to set up a tooling system that cuts the parts with precision that is amazing. The human hands on parts is gone. Not all bad. So without the fitting of the craftsman, my new Ruger Mark III would stovepipe once or twice per clip. This angerd me. A new gun should not do this. I asked my gunsmith what he thought. He said "Here is a brick of ammo. Go work your way though it and then come back and tell me if you still have the problem." I called "bull$%^&" but bought the ammo and went out to waste it. Later that day I had to go back and tell him "somewhere near half the brick and a can of Break Free it quit stove piping"! He said "I thought you said I was bull$%^&ing you!" Well at that point I said "We will see If it is fixed or not. Time will reveal the truth." Since then I have put a lot of rounds downrange with it and it preforms flawlessly. Maybe breakin is a wivestail but this was an exersize in humilty.

 

[Dingoboyx]

PSP

Quite right, mate, it takes alot more than a couple of hundred rounds to completely settle the whole gun down. However, I still go by the fact that in this first 200 or so rounds, you MIGHT expect the thing to have a few teething problems, but, say after 500 rounds, if symptoms persist... see your doctor... er, I mean send it back to the factory, coz you must have a dud

Of the 3 new guns I have got 'out of the box, 2 Glocks (34 & 17) and a P22, only the p22 was a bit ordinary to start (several fail to cycle) with, but after 300 rounds (now done over 5000) It hasnt been an issue.... perfect (oh & one of the Glock mags I couldnt get the 10th round in, till it had been used with 9 for a while as said above) I nearly broke the plastic loading helper but still couldnt get the 10th round in, til the spring got used to the idea of where it was supposed to compress to.

I am not being arguementative or really even disagreeing with you, these are just my untrained observations/experiences and personal opinions

 

[Dingoboyx]

Single six

+100

Rotfl

 

[KC Rob]

I do believe in the break in of any mechanical object. When metal rubs metal the fit improves over time as the miniscule imperfections wear against each other. I just bought a new 1911. In the first 100 rounds I had 1 stove pipe and 2 FTE. In the second 100 rounds I had 1 stove pipe. In the 3rd 100 rounds I had zero malf's. When I first shot the gun I could not get the slide release to depress the mag tension enough to close the slide with out using two thumbs. Now it closes easily with one thumb. How else do you explain this? I have an old first gen G17 that is as smooth as butter and the slide is very easy to cycle. I recently shot a friends brand new G17 and the spring tension on the slide was significantly heavier. Anyone who has shot a gun has felt these kind of difference, why is it such a hard concept to accept? I am not making excuses for a poor gun, but I dont think that a break in period for a gun is such an egregious thing as some are making it out to be. Thats like throwing out your Levi's because they are kind of stiff and the buttons don't fit the button holes real well. Give those Levi's a couple wears and washes and they will fit like your old slippers!

 

[chriske]

Finally some common sense about this : IMO, Mr Seecamp is absolutely right.

(I always found it remarkable that the vast majority of breaking-in period advocates seemed to be talking about 1911-type semi-auto's. Now why would that be ?)

 

[Keltyke]

(I always found it remarkable that the vast majority of breaking-in period advocates seemed to be talking about 1911-type semi-auto's. Now why would that be ?)

Maybe that's what YOU are talking about. I'm talking about ANY two pieces of machined metal that rub together. Go ask any machinist - THAT will be the "common sense" of it. Mr. Seecamp certainly doesn't make perfect guns, and even his much-vaunted pistols will benefit from a break-in.

 

[Keltyke]

Don't hold your breath waiting for a logical answer.

I, and others, have given the "logical" answer. Go back and read our posts. Let's get this straight - NO ONE IS SAYING THE GUN WON'T WORK PROPERLY STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. It WILL work BETTER with a wearing-in period.

Does a spring work better?
Will the barrel and breech fit better?
Is the trigger changed?
Does the magazine feed better?

I'll take a brand new gun and one that's had a 1,000 rounds through it and, under a strong microscope, I'll show you what "changes" occur. The metal smooths and polishes and the two parts fit more exactly. The trigger WILL change - it will move more smoothly. The slide will move more easily. The mag may lock in more easily as the sharp edge of the lock notch rounds off just a minute bit.

You people are arguing against the FACTS of machining and metallurgy, and I'm tired of talking to the wall.

Y'all do whatever you want with your guns, I'll break mine in.

I'm outta this one.

 

[Dingoboyx]

Go Keltyke

+100 yoo's the dude

 

[dgludwig]

With all due respect to Mr. Seecamp, his comment in my opinion is pure BS. Semi-autos require a break in. I know this from my own experieces with new pistols. Generally I experience some jams, misfeeds etc. when I first shoot them. After 300 - 500 rounds, the problems are very few and far inbetween. Whether this is actually due to firing rounds or the fact that I clean the gun thoroughly after each session is up for debate. But the truth is the truth, all of my new guns got more reliable after putting a few hundred rounds through.

Quote:
Don't hold your breath waiting for a logical answer.

I, and others, have given the "logical" answer. Go back and read our posts. Let's get this straight - NO ONE IS SAYING THE GUN WON'T WORK PROPERLY STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. It WILL work BETTER with a wearing-in period.
[/QUOTE]

As you can see from the above quote, there are posters (he's not the only one) who were saying "THE GUN WON'T WORK PROPERLY STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX". I've read your posts and I'm still not holding my breath for a logical answer to the original question (which was based on a quote from Larry Seecamp): Why should we expect less than a pistol functioning correctly when it's brand new? Forget about the red herrings (smoother running, operator becoming more familiar with the controls, trigger improving with use, verifying reliabity, etc.) that came along later to divert the issue as posed originally.

I'm outta this one.

Didn't you promise that earlier?

 

[RsqVet]

I hope I am not adding fuel to a fire that does not need to exist... BUT think of the idea that a gun "wears in" this way.

You have a blued pistol... you shoot it... SOME area of the slide rails wears first... these where the "high spots" of where slide and frame were fit. These are now smoothed in / worn in / worked in whatever you want to call it. The last areas to loose their blue are the low spots. (OK this is a bit of a simplification as it assumes 100% perfect and flat engagement but work with me here people).

This is a mechanical fact as many here well versed in machine work have pointed out again and again.

The gun hopefully works however regardless of anything and / or only gets better... i.e. smoother function / goes from 98% reliable to 100% reliable as things progress.

Just like we should not accept car that is stalling during a "break in" we should not accpet a gun that jams... this is what Mr. Seecamp is talking about. A jam-o-matic will not get better with time... there is something fundamental with the gun, mag, ammo or shooter. How many little "oops" jams we accept when a gun is new is a personal preferance but I accept near zero, otherwise I look for issues and or send it back.

 

[JAYBIRD78]

Short and sweet in my opinion. Don't let me ruffle your feathers.


He's a professional, so he must be RIGHT.........................Just like politicians, lawyers, cops, your accountant..etc....etc....etc...and presidents.

This isn't a perfect world and neither are your guns. THINK ABOUT IT.

MY $.02

Oh yeah........I forgot engineers.......they think they are god on paper, but here in the real world they are a joke. ha..ha..ha..

 

[hoplophile]

When you slide two extremely flat and highly polished metal surfaces together, molecular attraction adds to the coefficient of friction. In other words, the coefficient decreases as you reduce roughness up to a certain point where it then increases due to the molecular effects.

Quote excerpted from a really good article on friction.

From:
School for Champions
Changing Sliding Friction on Hard Surfaces
by Ron Kurtus (16 February 2008)

link:
http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/friction_changing_sliding_hard.htm