Black Person, Black Hoodie = Reasonable Suspicion?

One of my patients at the city I was in was one of the chief detectives on the force. He collated ALL of the arrest reports for the entire year since that was one of his duties. One year, he simply made a pile of each race that committed the crimes and was arrested. One for blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and Whilte.

One race that is by far a minority in this city had three times the number of crimes as the next in line, while the predominant race in town had the least by far. I will let folks fill in the blanks to not provoke a complete TFL melt down, but to deny that there are racial problems where certain groups of people do commit a majority of the crime is not looking at the evidence clearly.

We now have a very aggressive mayor in town that has cracked down on the abuses of the section 8 welfare homes drawing national attention as well as the expected ACLU law suit. I can tell you that the section 8 house three doors over from mine had up to 30 people living there. Had arrests for gang and drug activity, multiple neighborhood complaints, recorded neighborhood crimes, break ins, fights, drug dealing etc. Did HUD do anything? NOT A THING. Did the city at the time under a different mayor do anything? NOT A THING.

What saved our neighborhood. FORCLOSURE, YES!! The house went for sale and the new owners vacated the lease to the section 8 criminals. Crime in our neighborhood immediately fell to nothing.

There is a serious gang problem growing in America fueled by free HUD supplied housing where they place their operations and criminal activities right in the midst of "good" neighborhoods. For anyone that has spent anytime in our prisons, the reality is that race is the predominant separating factor. It is also a truth that the leaders in the prison gangs run things on the streets. The prison gang wars spread into our neighborhoods by this well organized criminal activity.

As a Christian, I readily understand that all men are of the same blood and we all have a soul that will stand before their own Creator and give account. My two best friends from the Army are black. I a married an Asian woman and my children all have brown eyes and black hair. I am not the least motivated by racial overtones in my personal life, but having spent 8 years preaching in a maximum security prison, and had dozens of police officers as my patients, the facts are quite clear. To survive on the streets as a cop, profiling is quite simply a fact of life whether it is "right" or "wrong," it simply is. Here in this town where a minority race is responsible for the majority of the crimes and arrests, looking for the kids in the black hoodies is unfortunately a reality.

Lastly, when I see the known criminals in our own neighborhood (we have a very active neighborhood watch program by necessity) almost all of them to a tee are seen in black hoodies even in the hottest months here in the southwest desert. Sorry, but after over a decade of harrassment in my own neighborhood by hooded folks, I take notice of them immediately should any approach me. The cops I have spoken with likewise do the same. Just the way it is in the real world.
 
Well i will be sure to stay away from people with 3 names then as most serial killers have those, be sure to stay out of trailer parks cuz that's where the meth labs are, and so on and such like. We can go on and on. What I mean is it's perfectly fine to be aware, but this type of thinking leads to further alienation and promotes fear on all sides. The movie "The Siege" illustrates this perfectly. And it is absolutely plausible.
 
Sadly, my neighborhood has been under seige in the last decade, mostly by those wearing hoodies. We now have a top of the line alarm, bars on our windows and doors as well as other security precautions all in a state where CCW is out of reach. Yes, seige is exactly what it is my friend. Try living 3 doors over from a house with 30 people conducting gang and drug activity and get back to us to tell us what you would call it my friend.
 
Pretty Lake Ave, Norfolk,Va. 1992. I lived across the street from a crack house. Told the owner to respect my family. Never had one problem.
 
"Urban styles dont automatically correlate to criminal behavior."

No, not automatically, but the odds are they aren't nuns or nurses or plumbers. Clothing style IS a behavior. Hair style IS a behavior.

There's urban like a three-piece suit and there's urban like a drug dealer.

Heck, I bought a hoodie and wore it in D.C. during most of 1965. It was stupid looking then... :o

John
 
Here's my two cents:

I consider it my duty as an adult to judge people. The closer I get to you and the more I interact with you the more I'll judge you. This doesn't mean that I'll call you out or behave rudely to you if I judge you "not my sort". It just means that I'm not going to trust you, confide in you or spend any time with you. I'll treat you with the basic level of courtesy due to all people whenever we do interact. Not more than that. I'm responsible for who I associate with, so my duty to judge you is clear.

Since it is my duty to judge, I must judge on some basis. The first thing available to judge you on is what you look like. The range of acceptable appearances at this time in history is pretty large. If you choose to look like a bad guy extra in a movie you are telling me something about yourself. I may find out later that this poor judgement in your appearance is just a harmless quirk. But initially I'm going to judge you on the info I have.

I have a few friends and regular acquaintances who run the gamut from black guy/black hoodie to looking like one of Schillingers crew from the old HBO series Oz. Some of them I was initially wary of, but later found out to be good guys. I also know people who look like fine upstanding citizens but are as evil as it is possible for a human to be. So while appearance is a good first place to start, it's not the end of the story.

The Government is not allowed to judge you. I am required to judge you. Don't ignore the difference.
 
odds are they aren't nuns, or nurses...
I dress in a manner that, based on what has been said in this discussion would have many of you grabbing the grip of your trusty ccw and looking over your shoulder. I work 40 Plus hours a week at a hospital. Shot a hole in that logic, now didn't I?

It's 2011, things, people, society, fashion, all change. Get a grip on reality and realize that just because a person dresses in a way that is fashionable to them and their contemporaries doesnt make them a threat to you.

If the manner of dress of the population bothers someone that much, move to an area where people dress more akin to you. The rest of us shouldn't have to be judged or profiled becauae of your (this is directed at no one in particular, its a figurative "you") paranoia of all things not Cleaver-esque.
 
I dress in a manner that, based on what has been said in this discussion would have many of you grabbing the grip of your trusty ccw and looking over your shoulder. I work 40 Plus hours a week at a hospital. Shot a hole in that logic, now didn't I?

No you didn't. The logic is sound. Your resistance to the consequences of your choices is where the issue lies.

You are free to dress as you like. For that matter, you are free to do as you like. No law, code of conduct or custom can restrict you. All laws, codes of conduct and customs can do is impose consequences. The consequences of dressing and appearing to your fellow man in a way that draws negative attention are yours to bear. You bear them because of your decisions. I bear the consequences of judging you. Everyone has their part to play.
 
I am required to judge you.

This is a choice. A conscious decision on your part. No one "requires" you to judge but yourself.

People are missing the point. Judge, if you must. But on action, and not on appearance. You all know Grandma taught "not to judge a book by it's cover" lol:D. I guess the best I can hope for is civility at this point. Personally, I choose a more positive outlook than a pessimistic one. Much easier to deal with. Me that is:D.
 
That's my point. I am the only one who can REQUIRE me to do anything. All anyone else or anything else can do it impose consequences.

All of life is composed of responsibility, choices, actions and consequences. In my opinion most evil occurs when someone tries to artificially break this chain. Usually this happens in the "responsibility" or "consequences" part of the chain. This thread deals with the "consequences" part.

How else do you judge a book without reading it?
 
Look, YG... If I go out in a Hugo Boss suit and loafers, I get viewed and treated differently than I do if I go out in boots, chinos, and leather bomber jacket... Or sneakers, faded jeans, and a tank top... Or The North Face hiking gear... Or my beat-up green 1951 jacket and combat boots.

Good or bad, each look is likely to evoke a different reaction, which will vary with the audience. My identity and personality haven't changed, as people will rather quickly figure out. But most people will form their initial impression based on how I look.

According to the undergrad psychology courses I took back when, that is pretty universal behavior. Experiments involving pre-K kids showed that they had a strong tendency to assign personality traits to people they had only observed in photos. (Generally, kids seem to think physically attractive people are "nicer". Go figure...)

People also tend to be more comfortable around people with whom they identify. I tend to prefer the company of educated but outdoorsy and active people. My sister, who is a university VP, tends to hang with an academic (and largely urban) crowd.

My sister probably reacts more favorably to people in hoodies than she does to people in cowboy boots and Stetsons...

Whether we like it or not, people do form first impressions before we even say a word.

And we know this, or else we would dress down when meeting the families of our significant others, buying cars, and job- hunting.

So sometimes I dress up, sometimes I dress down. But I am aware that in many instances, how I look may matter.
 
The irony of "judging a book by its cover" is that publishers pay editors and artists a lot of money to design covers that will hook potential readers.

If people were not affected by art, lead-ins, review tag lines, etc the publishing industry would not waste millions of dollars on such...
 
This thread has wandered off into profiling, when the story in the OP, assuming its an accurate account, seems more a case of mistaken identity than racial profiling.

If the description the officers had was of a White man with a mullet, wearing a monster truck t-shirt and driving a 1978 Chevy pick up, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they wouldn't have pulled the individuals in question over.
 
If I was to fear anyone or any young man wearing a dark hoodie where I work. Well lets say they all wear them :) lol a community college in the "bad" part of town. I just smile and look happy to everyone comes my way. Treat everyone as I wish to be treated is my way of doing things. Treat everyone the same till they prove they need to be treated differeently.
 
All the hoodie and dress talk is missing the point. The police were looking for a guy in a hoodie, because thats who was described as being the suspect. It has nothing to do with the actual garment, it was the description provided to police by the victim. If he had been wearing a tiara and ballet tights, the cops should be looking for a guy in a tiara and ballet tights. Not a guy in a hoodie.

The hoodie was just what that suspect was wearing when he pulled a robbery, could have been any kind of clothing. Wearing a hoodie doesn't "make" you a good guy or a bad guy, it makes you a guy wearing a hoodie.

I have gotten broadcasts to look for everything and anything as far as descriptions go. Know what I look for? People matching those descriptions. Right down to a priest in full regalia. He was an Alzheimers patient that walked away from a nursing home in his full outfit. I wasn't profiling priests, I was looking for a guy matching a description.
 
We have a large military component in our city. Most have combat experience making them less of a target than the old lady with grocery bags. I wear my Army hat and keep my hair short in line with this military look. I am also still fairly muscular for my old age of 53. I dress a certain way when I am out and about so that I am not the first person that the creeps think of accosting. Clothes do make a statement whether we like that or not. When I was doctoring, it was tie and coat all the time. You could look at me and know I was a doctor.

Now, when out in public, I try to play up my military appearance to give them a second thought about harrassing me or my wife since I am not allowed to carry in CA. When I am speaking at national medical meetings, I am wearing a black suit and tie. What you wear in many ways tells something about you. Eye ball to eye ball, you will trust a man in a suit quicker than someone whether black, white, red or yellow wearing a black hoodie in the middle of the hot summer. It just isn't the right clothes for the heat and temperature. It is out of place.
 
BGutzman
Senior Member

dress like a potential thug get treated like a potential thug
__________________

How does a thug dress?
Only thugs I personally know are thugs, wear 3 piece Armani or such.

Most of the guys I know that CC wear baggy pants.
 
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