Black Person, Black Hoodie = Reasonable Suspicion?

If you have ever been to Lake Charles you would probably better understand that the whole area has lots of suspicious people of every color or lack of color....

It may well be like New Orleans (or not) with a population with a lot of people with some judicial history. Not to say the whole place was bad because it certainly wasnt and some people were very warm but it is what it is...
 
It was after 10 p.m. and raining. The person was in the area where a robbery had recently occurred, and appeared (apparently) to match the description of the robbery suspect. On a side note, there could be more info that the newspaper is not reporting ie: possible vehicle description, clothing description, height and weight, etc., that may have also matched the lady or her husband.

Maybe the cops made a mistake trying to solve a robbery, and it's not a giant conspiracy. Heresy! :eek:

The lady was briefly detained, handcuffed, and shortly thereafter released with an apology. I am failing to see the problem here.
 
The lady was briefly detained, handcuffed, and shortly thereafter released with an apology. I am failing to see the problem here.
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I don't much see it either, despite all the major attempts at drama by the victim. I wonder how a stranger would have been received by the town watch after dark when a nearby place had been robbed 200 years ago. I am betting not as nicely as this. People need to grow up and realize what kind of world we live in.
 
icedog88, I believe from previous threads that you are active or former military. Did you get the same funny looks when you were in uniform, as you did when you were in hoodies, etc? My bet is you did not. You, the person, had not changed, but your clothing sent a message whether you wanted it to or not.

Young.Gun.612, whether you are deviating from norms depends on where you are at the time. However, when I lived in an area where the clothing style you describe was more normal, a lot of my neighbors who dressed in that style were getting a lot of visits from the sheriff's drug unit. When the drug and violent crimes in an area are, more often than not, committed by people in certain modes of dress, those modes of dress get unfavorable notice.

Look at it another way - young, brooding white males in long, dark trench coats tend to make a lot of people think "Columbine shooter." It doesn't mean people will necessarily be mean to those males, but it does mean a lot of people will keep a much closer eye on them.

Should people be judged by their clothes? Maybe not. Do I know people whom I like who dress in ways that might look sketchy? Yes, I do. Have I ever dressed in ways that had people looking at me in such manner? Yes, I have.

But pretending that this isn't so, or even that there is no reason for it, is naive.
 
Whats all this anti profiling nonsense? The way you look can say something about you. Everyone knows it and to some degree everyone practices it. If something is so obviously off wouldent it make more sense to start there then randomly? Profiling is just another way of looking at statistical averages. I am not a cop, yet everyday part of my job is to profile/read peoples affect and ascertain the truthfulness of there comments. Yet if some cop who has seen lots of criminals (because they are a cop and they come into contact more then the general public) notices something that forms a pattern which suggests a higher likelihood and a known crime has taken place, suddenly its "profiling".
 
Look, I wasn't there. Nor was anyone else here. All I'm saying is when you profile it leads to this type "us vs them" mentality. Being handcuffed is extremely degrading, even more so when you are innocent and the reason why you were stopped is sketchy. To the people defending the cops because their job is to go home safe every night, thousands of cops find ways to do this every day without putting themselves in a position where misconduct can be construed. If such a stop was made, why no record of it? Notice, I say if. I don't know if it happened or not. But as it isn't a stretch for some to suggest hoodies mean thugs, by the same token, give the history of cops in the south, it isn't a stretch to suggest that this incident happened. If it did the way she described it, it was wrong.

The way you look may say something about you. This delves into something greater than just a random stop. People for the most part dress as their peers around them. In the west/ midwest you are more likely to find boots and jeans than in the east. In the cities, you are more likely to find hoodies and Tims. Doesn't mean the western wear indicates some hick just as hoodies don't indicate thug. I had thought our society had progressed from some of these stigmas. I see it hasn't. I may see a person in the Bronx dressed "out of place" in western attire and think "wow, don't see that everyday". Doesn't mean said person doesn't belong and I should be wary and constantly check my six because of it. Being alert doesn't mean I have to be paranoid.

Profiling keeps humans thinking that it's us and them.


icedog88, I believe from previous threads that you are active or former military. Did you get the same funny looks when you were in uniform, as you did when you were in hoodies, etc? My bet is you did not. You, the person, had not changed, but your clothing sent a message whether you wanted it to or not
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Correct. Wore my uniform proudly for 12 years. But this imo is different because of the word uniform. What this suggests is that if everyone in this country wore a uniform, they would be treated the same. We, as educated adults know this is false.
 
Im not understanding all the Hoodie profiling comments.
A description was given, black male wearing a hoodie.
Police were on the look out for a person matching that description.
If it had been a Green Male wearing a speedo, would would be talking about Speedo profiling?

I think whats in question here is the police pulled over a female not wearing a hoodie.
And they were potentially not professional in their behavior.

The only thing that is 100% fact in this story is, the media is twisting it to fit their agenda.
 
In the cities, you are more likely to find hoodies and Tims. Doesn't mean the western wear indicates some hick just as hoodies don't indicate thug.
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I've been around the block. Actually, it does frequently work out that way. Enough that you can depend on it, and you had best rely on it if you want to go home at the end of the day.
 
icedog88
Senior Member

Probably would be if green men wearing speedos had a history of being profiled
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Profiled for what?
History of what?

What if the description had been " 3' white male, with one prosthetic arm pulling a Radio fly wagon with a large bank bag full of money "

At which point the police should not pull over any one matching that description, because that would be profiling any one with Radio Flyer wagon full of money.
 
"The suspect was a black male wearing a hoodie."

Did they check the suspect's gender at the crime scene?

How could they be certain the suspect was a male without a strip search? I'm serious, the suspect may have appeared to be a male, may have spoken like a typical male, may have dressed like a male, but hey, crossdressing and stuff happens.

I spend too much time drinking beer with lawyers. :)

John
 
I was wondering that, myself.

Not having seen the suspect or the woman, and not knowing what they look like, I'm not sure how obvious it was that the suspect was a man, and the woman was not.

Just yesterday, looking around at people at restaurants and stores, there were several whose gender was not immediately obvious. Often, this was due to extreme obesity making normal characteristics difficult to observe. PC or not, it's hard to tell when body shapes are amorphous.

Also, there have been recent robberies where the "man" was a woman (in hoodie, ballcap, and sunglasses), or the "woman" was a man (cross-dressing). It would depend, I suppose, on whether the suspect's identity were known, or if people were responding to a general description, as to whether a woman would obviously not be the suspect.

icedog88, going back to judging people - we are talking about snap judgements based on appearance. We aren't talking permanent judgements. If the person dressed in a manner that puts us on edge turns out to be polite, friendly, and pleasant, it's not hard to overcome the initial apprehension. But the point is, the initial appearance in this case is something that has to be overcome. (And it's not a racial thing; my bells and whistles don't go off over conservatively dressed black males, but they do over white males in hoodies and baggie pants, assuming no major behavioral cues are happening.)
 
johnbt
Senior Member
"The suspect was a black male wearing a hoodie."

Did they check the suspect's gender at the crime scene?

How could they be certain the suspect was a male without a strip search? I'm serious, the suspect may have appeared to be a male, may have spoken like a typical male, may have dressed like a male, but hey, crossdressing and stuff happens.

I spend too much time drinking beer with lawyers.
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The person was seen committing a crime, but he is only suspected of committing the crime.

The suspect that was definitely committing the crime, is suspected to be male, but may indeed be not male, and is suspected to be wearing a Hoodie,but may not be.

All officers be on the look out for some one not fitting this description.
If you see some one fitting this description , look the other way.
Only stop white females not wear hoodies.
 
Had an entire post written but deleted it because some people just don't get it. Profiling is wrong imo. Period. Do it if you must to "go home at the end of the day" but don't be surprised if those that are profiled do their own profiling. If we could all dress alike and speak the same as everyone else does, I'm sure this wouldn't be an issue:rolleyes:. As for me, I choose not to profile and yet continue to make it home everyday without alienating different types of people. Lots of LEOs in my sphere of friends and family. The ones who do profile don't rate very high with the rest of us.

At which point the police should not pull over any one matching that description,
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As for this, they were looking for a male, they pulled a female and cuffed her after establishing this.

This may or may not fit profiling but at the least smacks of harrassment.
 
icedog88
Senior Member

Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: norwich ct
Posts: 328

Had an entire post written but deleted it because some people just don't get it. Profiling is wrong imo. Period. Do it if you must to "go home at the end of the day" but don't be surprised if those that are profiled do their own profiling. If we could all dress alike and speak the same as everyone else does, I'm sure this wouldn't be an issue. As for me, I choose not to profile and yet continue to make it home everyday without alienating different types of people. Lots of LEOs in my sphere of friends and family. The ones who do profile don't rate very high with the rest of us.

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At which point the police should not pull over any one matching that description,
As for this, they were looking for a male, they pulled a female and cuffed her after establishing this.

This may or may not fit profiling but at the least smacks of harrassment.
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Not arguing that Profiling is questionable, or that the stop in question, wasn't questionable.
Only that using a description from an eye witness is not profiling.

As for profiling, every one does it every day, including you.
A profile is just that, and every person fits a profile, and we have to use those profiles to get through the day.
The woman at at the restaurant wearing a waitress uniform carrying a little pad of paper fits the profile of a waitress, so we give her our order.

The guy driving a yellow car with a light on top fits the profile of a Taxi driver so we wave to him to stop.
 
Drawing conclusions on a group based on profiling without confirmation is what I am referring to. Negative connotations associated with manner of dress more often than not, turn out to be false.

MLeake:

A person's behavior and how they act is a better assessment of a person's character than how they dress. A person in traditional Arabic dress does not raise my alarms anymore than a person in jeans and a t-shirt. However, if either one is acting suspiciously or out of the norm of everyone else around them, that's my cause for alarm.

As with anything I try to do (for the most part), I am not in any way trying to disrespect anyone, merely disagreeing. It's one of the reasons why I love this forum!:D. Because we can and still have respect.
 
icedog88, I'm not trying to be a jerk; and I agree with you about observing behavior as ultimately being more important.

Where we disagree, apparently, is on the importance that many people put on first impressions. It takes time to observe behavior. It takes a flash image to see how something appears. Like it or not, human survival depended on making very fast judgements based on appearances, for many thousands of years. It's pretty ingrained.

Overcoming a negative first impression requires conscious effort. The things that give us negative first impressions may well be functions of popular culture; they may also be functions of individual experience. They may even be based on some objective observations (for instance, security camera after security camera showing people using hoodies pulled up, ball caps pulled down, and sunglasses to try to defeat security cameras; hoodies and sweats or baggy pants used to hide weapons; etc).

And, as I said to Young.Gunr, "norms" vary with where you are and who you are among. The "Why did Little Tiffany have to die?" scene from Men in Black is one of my favorite illustrations of this idea.

Going back to the male/female thing: Again, I haven't seen pictures of either the suspect, or the woman. Differences may have been immediately apparent, I don't know.

We had a murder last week in Kansas City, committed by a woman who was angry that the decedent had not paid her for drugs she gave him to sell. The mug shot photo they ran of the woman... well, if you didn't know she were a woman from the article, you might have no idea from the photo. I could easily see witnesses who didn't personally know her, thinking that a man had been the killer.
 
icedog88
Drawing conclusions on a group based on profiling without confirmation is what I am referring to. Negative connotations associated with manner of dress more often than not, turn out to be false.

MLeake:

A person's behavior and how they act is a better assessment of a person's character than how they dress. A person in traditional Arabic dress does not raise my alarms anymore than a person in jeans and a t-shirt. However, if either one is acting suspiciously or out of the norm of everyone else around them, that's my cause for alarm.

As with anything I try to do (for the most part), I am not in any way trying to disrespect anyone, merely disagreeing. It's one of the reasons why I love this forum!. Because we can and still have respect.
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I agree that behavior is a better assessment, however ,observing behavior is done after profiling.

We cant say that all people who walk into a convenience store with a gun in their hand are convenience store robbers.
But they certainly fit the profile.
So we use a profile to determine the need to asses behavior.
If a person walks into a store with their face covered by a hoodie, with their hands in their pockets,you would be wise to profile.

We also have to consider that dressing in a certain way is a behavior in its self.
 
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We cant say that all people who walk into a convenience store with a gun in their hand are convenience store robbers.
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Action

If a person walks into a store with their face covered by a hoodie, with their hands in their pockets,you would be wise to profile.
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I classify this as action as well even though it is close to how a person is dressed. 20 degrees here, in winter, it's normal.

MLeake: I'm not so sure we even disagree to that extent. First impressions, imo, is slightly different than profiling used in the context of an entire group. A person wearing a hoodie in the inner city may well be a thug, but doesn't mean everyone who wears one is a potential thug either.

For example, I knew of a older man who lived in the projects in Portsmouth VA, who always had a red bandana hanging out of his pocket. Yup, you guessed it, not a Blood, just a hanky. But wait, if I use profiling, black male, red bandana, must be gang affiliated right? See what I mean? You say but he was an older man. Doesn't fit completely. Wrong. Gang members for life and if he was gang in his younger years, then got out, he wouldn't be still claiming his set by wearing colors.

Overcoming a negative first impression requires conscious effort.
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So does becoming proficient with a handgun. We want to do this, so it is easier than if it is forced upon us. I say the same can be said of any learned behavior.:cool:
 
So in this country where we're free to practice any religion, adhere to almost any political belief, we should still conform our dress to ways that will prevent close minded people from judging us simply for what we're wearing? Entirely wrong. If you're so paranoid of any young person of any color based on their clothing, well maybe you should move out to the woods and bunker down. Fashion changes, and people will dress in what their contemporaries dress in. Urban styles dont automatically correlate to criminal behavior.
 
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