Black Person, Black Hoodie = Reasonable Suspicion?

Get over it.

When I am in a black area I am targeted.

I was just pulled over and frisked and they took my knife away from me and thought I was trying to buy drugs or something.

The cops told me there were only 3 reasons a white guy would be in that area: drugs, guns and women I think. How about some f...ing gas since I had to get off the expressway on the south side and fill up. Idiots.

On the other hand, if there are black guys with hoodies walking around my house it might be the same for them.

In the end, if you are not doing anything wrong, than don't worry about it. If you are, than that is why you are yelling.

Those cops told me to get lost and go home. Ok, I had been hanging with a few friends prior and did have a beer or too a few hours ago, but they were nice enough to let me go on my way so they could find some real criminals who have hard drugs etc. instead of a can of baby powder from Costco.
 
BTW, I have never once met a doctor in my entire medical career that I would call a thug. Not sure why you are picking on docs, but I am no thug young man.
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I met Hassan. He was a just a confused young man back then. He later turned into a thug and a doctor of sorts. Psychopath more like it.
 
Alaska444
Senior Member
Man, you must live in a rough neighborhood. I have no problem CCW my EDC under my suit. Makes it quite easy really.

BTW, I have never once met a doctor in my entire medical career that I would call a thug. Not sure why you are picking on docs, but I am no thug young man.
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So you are saying we shouldn't judge a book by its cover?

I wear a hoodie and I'm not a thug young man.
 
So you are saying we shouldn't judge a book by its cover? I wear a hoodie and I'm not a thug young man
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And yet how many people wear this same clothing and are thugs and yet for your sake were just supposed to assume that everyone who wears this same clothing isnt... You could choose to wear something that was less commonly worn by thugs but you dont and then you complain when you end up categorized with the same group and yet your totally aware that this could happen and you still choose to wear it.... wow amazing.

Im not saying that everyone who wears a hoodie is a criminal but when you add the circumstances and the environment and the clothing to a given situation it may not be an unreasonable assumption.

If you wear the same thing that much of the people who commit street crime wear then assume at some point you might get treated for what your clothes are advertising that you might be. maybe its time to accept that your choosing to exercise your freedom in such a way that its going to have its occasional unpleasantries.
 
It's not up to US to change our dress to fit your paranoia and suspicion. That's the crux of the argument, more often than not, someone dressed in a hoodie IS NOT going to perpetrate a crime. Just because criminals wear hoodies doesn't mean anyone wearing a hoodie is a criminal.

That's the same argument anti gunners use against us, they penalize the item not the crime/criminal.

Bgutzman, you live in Minneapolis, how many people this time of year do you see in dark hooded jackets, or parkas with their hands in their pockets? Probably a lot, since its cold here. Do you automatically suspect they are up to no good? I mean, even the thugs over by Lowry/Lyndale get cold, so anyone bundled up could be a thug too, right?
Go to uptown, then go over North. You'll see people dressed almost identically, but one set is far more likely to be involved in criminal activity than the other. But based on what's been said here you'd view both with equal suspicion.
 
BGutzman
Senior Member

Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 1,438

Quote:
So you are saying we shouldn't judge a book by its cover? I wear a hoodie and I'm not a thug young man
And yet how many people wear this same clothing and are thugs and yet for your sake were just supposed to assume that everyone who wears this same clothing isnt... You could choose to wear something that was less commonly worn by thugs but you dont and then you complain when you end up categorized with the same group and yet your totally aware that this could happen and you still choose to wear it.... wow amazing.

Im not saying that everyone who wears a hoodie is a criminal but when you add the circumstances and the environment and the clothing to a given situation it may not be an unreasonable assumption.

If you wear the same thing that much of the people who commit street crime wear then assume at some point you might get treated for what your clothes are advertising that you might be. maybe its time to accept that your choosing to exercise your freedom in such a way that its going to have its occasional unpleasantries.
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I dont complain about being mistaken for a thug.
I just stated that the vast majority of the non thug population wear hoodies.
A thug is a Thug, his clothing is irrelevant, as is the type of crime he commits.

Holder is a thug.
Bloomberg is a thug.
These guys scare me.

Some gang banger wearing wearing his pants around his ankles trying to look like a tough guy, doesn't scare me.
 
But based on what's been said here you'd view both with equal suspicion.
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Don’t forget about the environment and situation.... I don’t assume that everyone who wears a hoodie is a criminal.

However if I’m at the gas station or a similar small store and its very early or very late and I see gang hand signs, see people who don’t know how to pull up the pants and generally have a hard time finding the energy to say the word "you" and are wildly covered in tattoos or colored bandanas (gang colors) and all wearing the same types of things then I make some assumptions...

Funny how no one gets upset when I make assumptions about some elderly person who might need assistance with a flat tire on the side of the road.... Never makes the paper that I insulted them by assuming things about them and then helped them.

Its all situation and environment dependent. As a young man in my twenty’s I took on three men in a stairwell acting in an attempt to rape a young woman... I didn’t physically have to fight them but only because I happened to be about twice the size of any one of them... Intimidation and outright anger was enough and help was near but that doesn’t mean my assumption was wrong... Or maybe I should have assumed that by blocking her way and not allowing her to pass was a friendly gesture, especially when they started to put hands on her and tell her that she was now their date and they were going to have fun..

My point being the situation and the environment offer clues.... No its not 100% and sometime good people end up feeling harassed but in the end if they are doing nothing wrong then they go on their way.
 
Do you wear a black hoodie when it is 110 degrees outside in the burning heat? The thugs over here do that. I suspect that what we are talking about is not for folks that are cold and keeping warm.
 
Alaska444
Senior Member

Do you wear a black hoodie when it is 110 degrees outside in the burning heat? The thugs over here do that. I suspect that what we are talking about is not for folks that are cold and keeping warm.
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What it seems we are talking about is, I shouldn't wear a hoodie so that I am not confused with a thug.

What would you think if you saw me wearing a $1600.00 Giorgio Armani navy wool-cashmere 3-button overcoat in 110 degree weather?

Seems we have gone from wearing a hoodie makes you look like a thug, to wearing a coat in the summer looks suspicious.
 
What would you think if you saw me wearing a $1600.00 Giorgio Armani navy wool-cashmere 3-button overcoat in 110 degree weather?
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One of two thoughts:
- Where did he steal that from?
- I wonder if he has any class III weapons under there?

Of course my ideas are likely different than most people....
 
Ay, yah, Ay. Oh well, wear your coat in the summer and see how much attention the cops give you. It is simply out of place implying impropriety of some type. Here in this city, that would almost uniformly be gang related. I would suggest for your own safety you don't wear a black hoodie in the wrong neighborhood. You won't have to worry a bit about the cops who may harrass you, but the gangs might just mistake you for a rival.

Nevertheless, if you feel like wearing that stuff in 110 degree heat, go for it. Not any of my business.

Have a good day.
 
Alaska444
Senior Member

Ay, yah, Ay. Oh well, wear your coat in the summer and see how much attention the cops give you. It is simply out of place implying impropriety of some type. Here in this city, that would almost uniformly be gang related. I would suggest for your own safety you don't wear a black hoodie in the wrong neighborhood. You won't have to worry a bit about the cops who may harrass you, but the gangs might just mistake you for a rival.

Nevertheless, if you feel like wearing that stuff in 110 degree heat, go for it. Not any of my business.

Have a good day.
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I dont wear a coat in the summer, and I dont wear a hoodie in the summer.

I wear a hoodie in the spring and fall and a coat in the winter.
But because you saw a "thug" wearing a hoodie in the summer, I shouldnt ever wear a hoodie because you think it makes me look like a thug.
 
What do cowboys dress like? Is it like thugs?

If someone wears a cowboy hat can they not be a thug?

Or will they have to be a cowboy?
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Silly, the bad cowboys wear black hats......

It is winter here, and cold, everyone is wearing a hoodie it seems.......

Sounds like a case of bored cop syndrome....
 
Young.Gun.612 said:
It's not up to US to change our dress to fit your paranoia and suspicion. That's the crux of the argument, more often than not, someone dressed in a hoodie IS NOT going to perpetrate a crime. Just because criminals wear hoodies doesn't mean anyone wearing a hoodie is a criminal.
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There is a horse in one pen and a tiger in another; which pen would you feel safer entering?

People make initial threat assessments based on individual or societal experiences in comparison to what they can observe. If something or someone looks similar to a previously-experienced danger, it is only sensible to be wary.

Dress as you wish, but don't complain when strangers treat you in a manner consistent with what they can observe and in a way to protect themselves.
 
I feel like I've helped create a monster...

Ok, guys, full disclosure, I've owned and worn a couple hoodies.

One was a black Carhartt that I bought while on a road trip; I hadn't packed anything for rain, and it turned nasty in Raleigh. Most price-efficient item I could find, quickly, was that hoodie.

The other was a Patriots hoodie, that I'd wear to the gym. Just realized i gave that one to my mother a little while back, so yes, my mom sometimes wears a hoodie.

So icedog88 and Young.Gunr.612, and Rusty35 and markj all raise valid points.

My anti-hoodie bias comes primarily from teens and twenty-somethings in FL, GA, and NC who wear the things in warm weather, hoods up; and even in reasonable weather, seem to try to obscure their faces with hoods and sunglasses. Anti-social behaviors, ranging from rudeness to shoving to actual criminal activity seem to go hand-in-hand with those combinations of clothing and, yes, behavior.

So, no, assuming Young.Gunr.612 was just wearing a hoodie in normal weather for the garment, and did not seem to be concealing his face or acting like he was hiding something (like a gun) in the front pocket, I would probably not think he was a thug.

The behavioral argument guys have a very good point.

And I never intended this to be about race, per se, but it really seems to want to go there. More full disclosure: my dad's best friend, from his own time in the Navy, was black. Stereotype haters, beware - they met at OCS, and my dad, the white guy, had to help teach the black guy to swim. His friend, the black guy, had to help the slow white guy pass the run. Stereotype held, but didn't turn out to be negative in their case.

I only met the man a couple times, as he lived a long way from where our family had ended up.

I have friends from a variety of races, and would prefer not to see this turn into a race-baiting thing.

With regard to the OP, as I noted in an earlier response to this thread, if the officer didn't call for backup or even call in the stop, I have a hard time believing he was fully acting in good faith. Conn.Trooper, what is your take on that aspect? Would it be normal to stop a possible armed robber in that manner?
 
MLeake

No monsters here.;)
I am firmly on the fence on this topic.

A person pointing a gun at a bank teller fits the profile of a bank robber.
A person wearing his britches around his ankles, with his face covered and his hands in his pocket, fits the profile of a trouble maker.

My 80 year old mother raking leaves in her yard wearing a hoodie does not fit the profile of a thug, and expecting her not to wear a hoodie because a certain element has adopted them is unreasonable.

Me driving a $500,000.00 tractor on the farm wearing a hoodie does not fit the profile of a thug, and expecting me to change the way I dress is out of line.

That said none of the folks supporting "hoodie profiling" would be likely to profile me or my mother as thugs, some folks just get a little passionate about the way they see things.:)

Any good discussion needs 2 points of view at a minimum.
 
I'm glad the thread is still open. I can add my $.50 worth.

Does anyone even bother to read ConnTrooper's posts?

The police are not perfect. They dont get it absoloutly correct each and every time. As I read it they were responding to a radio description of a person wanted for a past crime. They saw from their window into another car window, and percieved the possibility that the person in the other could be their subject. They stopped the car and did a complete investigation. As a police officer I may have handled it differently. But as soon as they were satisfied they apologized and ended the stop. It is what it is. The police werent profiling the description, not any particular people.

As far as profiling in general. As civilians everyone has every right to percieve, and judge people based on any criteria they choose. Their resultant actions is what could cause problems, and get them into trouble.

With the Police it is very different. The police are regulated, and subject to rules, and the rule of law. The most common abuse is using statistics, often not scientific to justify racial, cultural, or religious profiling. For example " Most armed robbers are blacks so therefore it is justified to stop and frisk blacks at will in order to reduce crime" IMO this is flawed logic. Even if the premis was correct, there are better and more efficient ways of stopping armed robbers. Also most police departments reflect the community they serve. If a community is mostly white their police department would be sensitive to a black person being in that comunity. Depending on the maturaty, and professionalism of that department the reaction may be from professional to criminal.

Having said that... I believe it is perfectly legal, and proper for the police to use profiling as a tool. As long at the profiling is not anchored in race, religion, sexual preference, age, or any other constitutionally protected personage. (everyone) But that race, age, Etc. may be a component of the profile.
 
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