Bill Of Sale For Private Sales/Trades?

Do You Require a Bill of Sale for Private Transactions?

  • Yes

    Votes: 37 52.9%

  • No

    Votes: 33 47.1%
  • Total voters
    70
  • Poll closed .
I have no problem showing ID to complete a FTF transaction to verify I meet the residency requirements... And my fingertip will cover my last name when he sees it...

But seller will not write down my info...

How many of you demanding sellers give your DL# & address to the buyer?

How does the buyer have a way to send the law after you when he finds out you sold him a stolen firearm that was used in a murder???

The buyer needs the seller's info more than the seller needs the buyer's info!!!

Brent
 
Just follow the laws for your state. I've had to fill out a BOS for every private transfer as per Illinois FOID law. Reading ISP's site, all that is required is that FOIDs are shown and a record of the transfer with firearm model, type, and serial are kept for 10 years. As weird as this is for me to say, having the FOID system kind of takes the guesswork out of private transfers. If they've gone through the hassle to get one, they more than likely wouldn't be willing to give up that right with your gun.
 
Strangely, after starting this thread I happened upon this story...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/robert-farago/brady-campaign-sues-armslist-com-for-internet-loophole-crime-gun/#more-177517

This is the part that got me thinking:

"Smirnov is currently serving a life sentence without parole. The gun seller pled guilty to the illegal transfer of a firearm to an out-of-state person, a felony, and was sentenced to one year and a day in prison. Jitka leaves behind her brother and life-long best-friend, plaintiff Alex Vesely, another brother, Pavel Vesely, and her father, Antonin Vesely"

I'm wondering if there are more details behind this transaction elsewhere. The seller pled guilty so his side of the story is most likely lost to oblivion. Was he charged by his state of residence or federally? Both? Obviously stories like this are an extreme rarity but I believe that this adds to the discussion...

Edit: Notice how the seller was sentenced to one year and a day? That extra day was most likely to trigger the permanent loss of his gun rights.
 
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It's proof that I had no reason to believe there was any problem with the transaction and the other party represented it as such.... No record of a transaction is shady.
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I don't agree that it's proof of anything. It's a piece of paper, nothing more.

And no record of a transaction is not shady- if it were, the issue would be addressed by law.

I say again- if this were an issue, we would be hearing about it. It's not, so we aren't.
 
I'm wondering if there are more details behind this transaction elsewhere. The seller pled guilty so his side of the story is most likely lost to oblivion. Was he charged by his state of residence or federally? Both? Obviously stories like this are an extreme rarity but I believe that this adds to the discussion...
HisDudeness is online now Report Post
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Interesting story- appreciate the link.

Two thoughts- the court case is public record so if someone really wanted to, they could go and look at the documents.

And, it sounds from the info provided that the seller knew he was selling to someone he shouldn't- it's not clear if the buyer is a US citizen, but he clearly was not a resident of the state.
 
Every thing shady is addressed by law? Amusing.
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Don't twist my words. You know what I mean. Private gun transactions are a common and frequent thing. If such transactions without paper trails were "shady" and presented problems they would be addressed by law.

You're better than this. I'm quite disappointed to see you pull that.
 
Let's not make it personal.

You said if it was shady it'd be addressed by law. Why would "it" specifically be addressed and other shady things wouldn't?


All kinds of "private" transactions happen every day. Some people want receipts, some people don't care.

Wanting one or not wanting/caring are not shady. Refusing to provide a receipt is shady.

It's such a common, every day, normal part of life that a refusal to provide one is a significant red flag.

I've bought and sold all kinds of things over the years, both with and without receipts. I've been asked for one when I didn't care and I've asked for them when the other person apparently didn't care.

Neither of those is shady. If I ask for one and it's a "No!", it's shady as hell.
 
Those who think a bill of sale insulates them from civil or criminal liability are sadly mistaken. (people will still sue you if they think you have money. Juries will wonder why you were diligent enough to have a bill of sale, yet not investigate the buyers background)

Those who think a bill of sale is "proof" of anything are sadly mistaken. (I just wrote myself a BOS for Interstate 45, so all you Texans should know it's mine now)

Getting the drivers license # of the buyer or seller proves what exactly? (faked DL's are all over, just ask any LEO)

Some of you guys don't recognise freedom when its staring you in the face. If you want to act like a dealer....get a freaking FFL. Then your REQUIRED to have all sorts of documentation.

If you are so paranoid, scared or cautious that you refuse to do a face to face sale of a gun...........take it to your local gun dealer and let him run the sale through his books and then transfer the firearm to the buyer with a 4473 and NICS check.
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I like the personal attacks. Thats very choice.
Reported.
 
If I want a form 4473 tied to my purchase, I can buy a new firearm through my local dealer...

If I want a PRIVATE transaction, I can find a seller who will meet my requirements...

If a private seller wants my DL# and DNA... Sorry but I was lookin' for a gun when I found that'n...

The 4473 is not as innocuous as some may think...

The BATFE will get these forms when the FFL closes his doors and they are not shelved in some dark dank cellar in a government building...

THEY ARE PUT IN THE "SYSTEM"!!!

My returned M-500 is proof... Spent 11 years in an evidense room before the city PD re-ran the numbers prior to sale/destruction after a person (possibly the burglar who stole it) lost it to them following an Ag. Assault charge with it...

Glad I got it back??? CERTAINLY... VERY TELLING OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S CAPABILITY TO FOLLOW THE 4473... No doubt in my mind!!!

I am not into conspiracy theories but I prefer to keep some transactions pretty close to the cuff...

Brent
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Something I don't understand about this, how did they know it was stolen from you with just the 4473??? It could have changed hands 50 times from the time you bought it until it was stolen. Now if you reported it stolen and gave them the serial numbers then it goes into the NCIC (totally different from NICS) stolen weapons database where it remains indefinitely until it is recovered. Even if ATF had your 4473 from where you purchased the gun it is highly improbable that it would have be entered into the NCIC database by ATF of their own accord. It would make the database unusable. Any weapon that was bought at a now defunct store would pop as a stolen weapon if such was the case.
 
I've sold/traded guns to dealers at gun shows without a bill of sale. I wouldn't sell a gun to any Joe Blow off the street if I didn't know them.
 
Here is how that went...
The gun was confiscated following the Agg. Assault charge... It was "stored" in the evidence room for 10 years... Before destruction, they ran the numbers one more time to make sure it didn't come back as wanted in another crime, or numbers reported stolen...

The city PD did nothave it reported stolen by me as the paperwork with all of my firearms #'s was in the lock box also stolen...

The selling dealer "Service Merchandise" was out of business so i couldn't call for the serial number...

So when ATF got the numbers for research, they found the paperwork the FFL had to submit when they closed up...

They sent a copy of the 4473 and the register tape to the city PD...

A very aware and dilligent lady noted that the criminal's name and mine were not the same... So she looked up mine in the system and found I had reported a burglary in which I lost a LARGE number of firearms... I was only able to provide make and model and description of identifying marks...

They then sent me a letter asking I call... A few minutes later I found out which gun they had and I went and picked it up the next day at which time I had to fill out another 4473 but NO CHARGE for the back ground check;)...

Brent
 
Okay, that makes more sense. I'm glad you got your gun back, but I was under the impression that they weren't really supposed to keep a database like that from a legal standpoint. I know they keep the 4473s, but entering them into a searchable database is a bit different.
 
For those of you that do not get a bill of sale, does anyone ever worry about the gun being reported stolen?

What if the said person tries to report it stolen, gets money from you and then tries to get the gun back by reporting?

I am just curious. I had this fear when I bought a gun from a friend, and then he had an unrelated argument. Nothing was ever signed but I gave him money for it. Nothing ever happened though it was just a thought in the back of my mind.
 
I had this fear when I bought a gun from a friend
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If it would have been a fridge, antique clock, or signed baseball; what, if anything, would have been different about the situation?

Edit: I guess my point is, CYA when buying or selling anything private party. You can be smart and aware without making the buyer/seller sign a billion things. If you have email/phone/text records from precursory conversations about the sale, keep em in a file cabinet or something. That should mediate this specific concern.
 
For those of you that do not get a bill of sale, does anyone ever worry about the gun being reported stolen?

What if the said person tries to report it stolen, gets money from you and then tries to get the gun back by reporting?

I am just curious. I had this fear when I bought a gun from a friend, and then he had an unrelated argument. Nothing was ever signed but I gave him money for it. Nothing ever happened though it was just a thought in the back of my mind.
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Considering I find the guns FOR SALE on forums or on Craigslist, I have either PM's where we discuss the transaction along with the seller's cell phone number where we talked in person or on Craigslist, I have an email "un"-papertrail via my email history... NOT A LICK... No I do not worry about it...

BTW... That Blackhawk wagon, on craigslist, with the .44 inch wheels... and 8 inch handle... it was out of my price range...:D
Brent
 
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IIRC, my gun's serial numbers were entered in the NCIC (or whatever) database since it was used in a felony crime... Thus it got a hit which pulled up the BATFE data from the defunct FFL...

Brent
 
This thread got me wondering about selling other personal property. When selling a car, I just need to sign the title and take the money, I don't need the buyers DL#, I am not required to make sure they have insurance and I am not required to ask if they have been convicted of DUI!

Why in the heck would I go through all that to sell a gun if I don't do it when selling a car? I don't do it when selling a chicken, or a goat, or a couch!

The gun is my personal property, I don't need permission from the Government to sell my personal property as long as the sale is legal. When the Government starts requireing its apporval for private property sales, I will throw in the towl, and no longer be a free man.

To voluntarily give up my freedom to sell whatever I want, as long as it is legal, is just un-fathomable.
 
Brian Pfleuger ....Getting a receipt for a purchase is a normal, every day part of conducting your life.
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True, but that isn't close to what some of you in this thread are discussing.

A "receipt" typically doesn't have a shred of information on the buyer. When I buy a TV at Target they have no freaking clue who I am, where I live nor do they ask for my drivers license number. Do you (the buyer) demand the drivers license number of the clerk at Target? Does the seller (Target) demand to write down your drivers license number for a CASH transaction? Of course they don't, that would be silly..........just like this thread.

If I pay cash for something the seller has no legal reason to record MY information. If he wants to hand me a receipt for my cash purchase of his gun, thanks. But he has ZERO reasons to record any of my information.


If you are terrified that you are buying a stolen gun.........never buy anything used. Even if bought at a gun store from a licensed dealer there is no way to tell if that gun was stolen and subsequently sold to that dealer.
 
I know my LGS fully documents incoming firearms with BOS or trade.
I never have required one, and I don't intend to, because I'm not in that business.
 
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