Bill Of Sale For Private Sales/Trades?

[zincwarrior]

Most guns I sell are at gunshops on consignment. If by chance I do a face to face and the buyer can't or won't produce an Id, I don't need to sell to him and he does not have to buy from me.

On the off chance that the gun is used down the road in an illegal manner and the police may come to my door inquiring about said gun, I want to be able not only to say I sold the gun but also to whom and when.

If that offends anyone, buy your gun somewhere else.

This too. Proof you actually sold said firearm.

I couldn't care less if the place I live is gun friendly or not. It's not even a gun thing. I want a receipt for anything I buy that's expensive.

There's also an old contract maxim that contracts over a certain $ amount require writing. It used to be $500 in most jurisdicitions. That may have increased.

 

[scottycoyote]

all my sales have been done thru armslist, i will ask the person what im required to in an email and once they answer in the affirmative i feel like ive got pretty much all i need (just keep the email). I once tried to use the downloabable bill of sale and the guy didnt want to fill it out, he showed me his dl and told me he could purchase a gun (showed me a gun he had with him in fact), so i did the deal and felt ok about it. I no longer try to get the bill of sale done.

 

[HisDudeness]

Every time I've ever done that, be it for a gun or any other item, the person has had me meet them at their house and invited me inside. Always seems very normal, every day sort of nonthreatening to me.

This scenario would not likely play out where I come from. I live in a large and transient city where trust is at a premium. Most guns I trade/sell/purchase I find through an online classifieds. Kind of makes me want to move where you live...

Civil lawsuits.
If you sold a firearm to someone and have no proof and any due diligence, it could get legally very bloody. The moment you have to pay a lawyer you've already lost.

What due diligence zincwarrior? Has anyone ever been successfully prosecuted for selling a gun to someone that turned out later (unbeknownst to them) to be a prohibited possessor? Should we start filling out paperwork when selling a vehicle to make sure that the purchaser is legally able to drive?

If we treat these tools as "evil" like so many erroneously believe they are, we are playing directly into the hands of those that would restrict their trade immensely. Due diligence doesn't involve a paper trail and you are not legally obligated to do so...

 

[AH.74]

Breaking the chain is something easily overcome, and is done so every day.

If you cdon't have proof you operated in good faith and the buyer lied to you, your argument doesn't have strength. If they actually signed something to that effect, you have a much stronger position.

Really, it is? Every day? Please cite the last couple of cases in your state in which someone was prosecuted for supplying someone with a gun, where that other person committed crimes. I'm very interested to see this.

If this were such a big issue, don't you think it would have been regulated to death? Why do you think it hasn't been? Because it is not an issue.

Civil lawsuits.
If you sold a firearm to someone and have no proof and any due diligence, it could get legally very bloody. The moment you have to pay a lawyer you've already lost.

Again- where are all these cases occurring? Don't you think we'd be hearing about them all the time if it was such a big concern?

 

[AH.74]

I want a receipt for anything I buy that's expensive.

What is this going to get you in a private sale where I take your cash and hand you a gun? I'm not giving you any warranty or guarantee. Can't you just make your own accounting for your records? How would that be any different?

 

[big_bad_kitty]

I am an FFL. I am also an attorney. If someone asks me to fill out anything I respond with we will just run it through my A&D book. That way I have all the info I need to cover myself and is nothing more than they were asking of me. It has been almost three years since ATF has looked at my A&D book and I am due for a renewal inspection mid year in 2013. All firearms are either in my book or done with a showing of my CHL and a handshake. If there needs to be something in writing, I call the Sheriff's office while in my office to run the serial numbers. If someone is hung up on getting my info, there is usually something wrong with the deal anyway. JMHO and the way I handle my business.

 

[Joe_Pike]

The first couple of times I didn't but then I started to. It's not in any way required but it makes me feel better. If I know the person I don't worry about it, though.

 

[medalguy]

In Texas, all that's required of the seller is that he not have any reason to believe that the buyer is a prohibited person. That's a pretty simple requirement, and lacking that belief, I'd not hesitate to sell a gun to anyone whom I had no reason to bellieve was a prohibited person. No BOS required and none given.

I sure as heck don't want to give my personal information to a complete stranger in a parking lot. No siree.

 

[hogdogs]

If I want a form 4473 tied to my purchase, I can buy a new firearm through my local dealer...

If I want a PRIVATE transaction, I can find a seller who will meet my requirements...

If a private seller wants my DL# and DNA... Sorry but I was lookin' for a gun when I found that'n...

The 4473 is not as innocuous as some may think...

The BATFE will get these forms when the FFL closes his doors and they are not shelved in some dark dank cellar in a government building...

THEY ARE PUT IN THE "SYSTEM"!!!

My returned M-500 is proof... Spent 11 years in an evidense room before the city PD re-ran the numbers prior to sale/destruction after a person (possibly the burglar who stole it) lost it to them following an Ag. Assault charge with it...

Glad I got it back??? CERTAINLY... VERY TELLING OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S CAPABILITY TO FOLLOW THE 4473... No doubt in my mind!!!

I am not into conspiracy theories but I prefer to keep some transactions pretty close to the cuff...

Brent

Brent

 

[mitchntx]

This ....

The first couple of times I didn't but then I started to. It's not in any way required but it makes me feel better. If I know the person I don't worry about it, though.

Everyone has their own "feel-good" threshold. I respect that and hope those who want a BOS respect mine.

Personally, I won't require one nor will I fill one out. Giving personal info to a stranger is extremely dangerous these days ... a lot more so than any remote possibility of some liability down the road if due dilligence is done during the sale process.

If I'm buying or selling, I have an e-mail chat, phone chat and/or a face to face encounter. Ask a few questions about the area or where they work ... look for consistency in their story through out.

And I'm ready to walk if I get a "funny feeling". Lots of guns for sale out there.

Just exchanging a piece of paper isn't any reflection on a person's character.

Some one who INSISTS on a BOS makes me suspicious and I'll do business elsewhere. But that is just me ...

 

[zincwarrior]

I respect that. In return, anyone who refuses a BOS makes me suspicious. If you won't abide by the requirements to purchase a used car, I surely wouldn't sell you a firearm.

Your mielage may vary, and thats fine by me too.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

What is this going to get you in a private sale where I take your cash and hand you a gun? I'm not giving you any warranty or guarantee. Can't you just make your own accounting for your records? How would that be any different?

It's got nothing to do with accounting from a financial perspective. It's proof that I had no reason to believe there was any problem with the transaction and the other party represented it as such. I buy a TV, I have no way of knowing if it's stolen or not. No record of a transaction is shady. The cops show up (somehow) for this stolen TV, I have a receipt. I didn't know it was stolen. I still lose the TV but I have reasonable evidence that I thought I was conducting a legit transaction.

There's no reason why a legit transaction can not be accompanied by a receipt. None. My name, his name, what I bought. That's all I need.

Refusing it is silly anyway. I can grab my cell phone and turn on the audio recording and get the whole conversation if I want. I can take pictures of his car and license plate if I want. I guarantee the seller would never know.

For like $25, I can get a pen "spy" cam and put it in my pocket and have the whole thing on video.

It's naive to think that there's no trail because you don't have a piece of paper.

All I want is a receipt.

 

[mitchntx]

If you want to covertly act that way, then I certainly can't stop you. But those actions have nothing to do with the sale. Casing a victim happens all the time, I suspect.

But I don't have to freely and willingly give you a starting point and intel on my access to disposable income and, if I'm buying one, the probability I own several guns.

Thieves are sneaky. I wouldn't think it odd that someone with intentions less than good would invest in a gun in order to sell it to gather intel.

Good discussion.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Someone is going to sell you a gun so they can come and rob you?

I love that argument.

Doesn't it seem a tad more likely, if we're making up fantasies, that they would rob the guy from whom they GOT the gun?

I mean, you're going to rob the guy who USED TO have a gun or the guy who NOW has one?

Better yet, wouldn't they USE the gun that they bought from the other guy, to rob HIM. I mean, he's unarmed now and they're NOT, perfect target. He's defenseless AND you can steal back the money that you just paid him for the gun! Why would they SELL their best robbery tool?!

Come on. There's a certain level of caution that crosses into paranoia. If the guy wants to rob you, a piece of paper with NOTHING but your NAME on it isn't going to help.

His thug buddies that he brought to case the transaction can follow you home.

 

[Lordy123]

I usually make sure their license is real, and take down the number. I'll ask if they're a resident, and if they've ever been convicted of a felony.

I'll check later on WI circuit court access or criminalsearches.com, if I thought the buyer wasn't legal I would just forward his info to the police. Only had five transactions and each one checked out.

 

[bikerbill]

If I'm selling a gun, I bring a preprinted bill of sale with me, which requires only that I get a DL # and the buyer's signature ... I want to know where that gun is going. Not to be politically incorrect, but would you sell a firearm to some hoodie-wearing bozo with no ID who answered your ad, without having any idea who he/she was? Not me ... that gun can be traced to me through gunshop records and I don't want to be spending money defending myself if I can't show who had the weapon after me ... as somebody said, if you never need the document, good ... if you do, wouldn't you want to have it? The document I use states clearly that the gun is sold as-is, no refunds or guarantee ...

 

[howabouttheiris]

"What is this going to get you in a private sale where I take your cash and hand you a gun?"

As a buyer, I make it clear before we meet that I expect a minimal BOS and offer to bring one to sign. The 2 reasons I can quickly think of are....

1) What stops the seller from reporting it stolen and naming you as a suspect?
2) Some establishment of value for insurance purposes.

 

[dogtown tom]

Some of you guys don't recognise freedom when its staring you in the face.

Those who think a bill of sale insulates them from civil or criminal liability are sadly mistaken. (people will still sue you if they think you have money. Juries will wonder why you were diligent enough to have a bill of sale, yet not investigate the buyers background)

Those who think a bill of sale is "proof" of anything are sadly mistaken. (I just wrote myself a BOS for Interstate 45, so all you Texans should know it's mine now)

Getting the drivers license # of the buyer or seller proves what exactly? (faked DL's are all over, just ask any LEO)

Some of you guys don't recognise freedom when its staring you in the face. If you want to act like a dealer....get a freaking FFL. Then your REQUIRED to have all sorts of documentation.

If you are so paranoid, scared or cautious that you refuse to do a face to face sale of a gun...........take it to your local gun dealer and let him run the sale through his books and then transfer the firearm to the buyer with a 4473 and NICS check.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Juries will wonder why you were diligent enough to have a bill of sale, yet not investigate the buyers background

No they won't.

People get receipts for things all the time. I have no reasonable means of conducting background checks and no reasonable person (nor the law) would require such a thing.

Getting a receipt for a purchase is a normal, every day part of conducting your life.

I get a receipt for a gun that I buy from Bass Pro Shops. I get receipts for the gas I buy from Mobil. I get receipts for groceries, clothes, books, car parts... everything I buy.

Getting one for a gun I bought is completely and utterly normal.

As a matter of fact, if I were on this mythical jury (that there never will be anyway), my question would be "Why DIDN'T he get a receipt? Did he think there was something wrong or did he intentionally buy a stolen gun? Why WOULDN'T he want a paper trail?"

Which is exactly what I'd be wondering about a seller that refused to provide me with a receipt.

 

[Lordy123]

Getting the drivers license # of the buyer or seller proves what exactly? (faked DL's are all over, just ask any LEO)

Most states use a common algorithm for calculating drivers license numbers. The first letter of your last name should be the first letter of your license in most states. Watch for maiden names though. For WI(and quite a few others), the two numbers in between the second and third group are your birth year. The two numbers at the end of the third group are the day of birth.

I can calculate your WI drivers license in my head with only your name, sex, and DOB. Since you can only transfer firearms in your state, I don't think it would be too hard to learn how to spot a fake in your own state.

Depending on your state, you may have DOT "Translucency" triangles in the ID seen by shining a light through the ID. If your state has these just check for them, they are extremely hard to fake. It typically requires printing over a real ID(Unless you have VERY deep pockets to fab your own), and you can't do that with an inkjet in your moms basement; like you can with PVC.

Edit:
I have a copy of the 2011 bar book, If the mods are ok with it I can share the .pdf with everyone. It will have everything you need to spot a fake in your state.