Bi-Polar ? Shoot/Don't shoot

Good posts, Springmom.

It is easy to say that one would shoot the BP person in this scenario. I agree sadly with this shoot if the facts are correctly presented.

However, if one was faced with a close and loved relative, with a similar disorder, who picked up a knife or cleaver and was standing inside the Tueller distance - would you try to talk said person down or shoot him or her immediately when they didn't drop the edged weapon?
 
I would think if someone who is Bi-Polar were to see a gun pointed at him, it might trigger something. I would try to help the brother calm him down. Episodes usually don't last long.
 
Call me a grumpy old fart.

Okay, you're a "grumpy old fart." Sorry, I couldn't resist. And, I think you're absolutely correct. I'd hate to, but I'd drop the person in their tracks.
 
+1 1inthechamber. The difference here is that you KNOW the person. The air marshals did not KNOW this guy and could NOT afford to take the wife's word for it, because that is a tactic used by terrorists (distract police by yelling something, while bomber acts).

You talk them down. When a person has a psychiatric disorder and there is TIME to ascertain that (he's standing on a bridge threatening to jump, or he's talking like he's going to go kill somebody but has no weapon, etc) police send negotiators, not snipers. When it cannot be ascertained that a person threatening violence to others is mentally ill, then police act on the threat alone.

But when it is your loved one? You may well know (we did) how to talk him down and get him to settle down, put it down, etc. Shoot, half the reason I got my degree was to figure out how to deal with Middle Son...the career was above and beyond that.

Again, we're talking two different things. The air marshals did what they were supposed to do, and no blame attaches to them at all. In a situation where the person is known to be mentally ill, we don't shoot, unless all else fails; we would try to defuse things and get the person in for treatment.

Been there, done that, have a drawer full of t-shirts, never want another.

Springmom
 
Back to the original, a crazy man with a bloody knife is coming at me and his family member is yelling at me to not shoot because he is crazy... How does the added information from the family member change one piece bit of the situation? I shoot and continue to shoot until the threat is resolved.

If it is MY loved one threatenning me I will take more chances with my life. Since I will already risk my life by putting it between my loved one and a threat I see no difference in this. Hopefully I can resolve the situation, perhaps I am wrong and will pay dearly for the mistake. Either way it is my choice to rick my own life for my loved one.

As far as forcing medication on someone... For bi-polar disorders and other where there is a long history of the disorder becoming a danger to the sufferer or others I have no problem with forced medication and/or incarceration if they fail to take said medication. This is not a case of a normal citizen's rigths being abridged. This person is a clear exception due to a freak accident of nature which caused them to be dangerously mis-wired. It is great that we live in a day and age where there are medications that can neutralize the conditions but if someone is going to decide that their not wanting to deal with side effects or be tied to a medication is more important than the safety of all those around them I have no sympathy for them. They need to know the consequences of their failing to take required medication in no uncertain terms will mean they cannot be trusted in normal society. Every couple of years in NY you hear about some deranged homeless person who is "off their medication" who happened to push someone infront of a speeding subway train... It is pretty clear these people are a danger.

It is not a nice solution that people would like to discuss over supper but it is needed. People who cry out against the "violation of the sick's rights" should consider what our founding fathers would have done back in 1790 with someone showing these tendencies... I am certain encounter groups and were not part of the solution. Those who were a danger to themselves and others were simply locked away. Be happy we have the medications today, and require they take them.
 
It is not a nice solution that people would like to discuss over supper but it is needed.
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Indeed it is! Dealing with the mentally ill is the subject of some serious training in law enforcement, and should be for others that are self defense-minded as well. Years ago the more seriously ill patients were institutionalized, but the current thinking seems to be to mix them in with main stream society, so your odds of encountering a mentally ill person are far greater today. I believe that the comprehensive self defense courses floating around out there should include a section dealing with this, but I don't know of any that do.

It's interesting that Sir William chose a meat cleaver as his BG's weapon of choice. Was that random choice on your part SW, or did you have a reason for that particular weapon? Reason I ask is that an earlier thread in this forum dealt with knife throwing, and I think we were all pretty much in agreement that, except for a very few experts, or a very few lucky throws, a thrown knife isn't the most effective weapon. But a meat cleaver? A lot of weight with a lot of sharp edge, that when thrown, I would think would be a very nasty weapon indeed!

So Sir William's unstable BG is advancing with a cleaver. At what point, exactly, does he become a lethal threat? Twenty feet away? Ten?
There's a lot of disagreement even among LE instructors about the use of deadly force against a knife wielder. The biggest question seems to be, at what distance are you justified in using deadly force against him? Would that distance be greater with a cleaver involved? This is something to think about folks, because you can bet your bottom dollar that the DA will.
 
His mental deficciency or disorder or whatever you want to call does not make it ok to harm others, especially me or my family.
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You have NO CHOICE but to defend yourself/your family.

Its unfortunate, but thats the way it has to be.
 
1inthechamber said:
I would think if someone who is Bi-Polar were to see a gun pointed at him, it might trigger something. I would try to help the brother calm him down. Episodes usually don't last long.
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-1, 1inthechamber

"It might trigger something"?? :confused: :eek:

We're talking about a guy holding an edged weapon, who has already caused one person to be bleeding, and he is coming at you, looking enraged.

And you're worried that pointing a gun at him "might trigger something"?

You must have a really high threshold for feeling that something psychotic has been triggered.

The whole point of having a gun pointed at a psychotic person is that you really don't have worry quite so much anymore about what they might be "triggered" to do...


-azurefly
 
Every couple of years in NY you hear about some deranged homeless person who is "off their medication" who happened to push someone infront of a speeding subway train... It is pretty clear these people are a danger.
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Tactically, if I were a straphanger, I would NEVER wait for a train anywhere near the edge of the tracks. I would wait numerous feet away, and not approach until the train was right at the platform, stationary.

You just never know who is behind you. And they would always have the excuse of, "I was shoved from behind into that poor guy and he fell. So sorry."


-azurefly
 
Imagin the outrage had the airmarshall had a bead on him but not shot because he listened to the wife yelling he has meds to stop this, and then bipolar man pulled the pin on his human bomb vest. Every one would be screaming for the head of the skymarshall if he still had one.
The sky marshall no doubt is feeling horrible over this "suicide by cop". least we can do is say he did the right thing, which I think he did.
 
Capt. Charlie, you noticed? I have worked with american indian LEOs. We used to practice tomahawk and knife throwing. One LEO showed us how powerful a meat cleaver can be and how deep one could cut with one. That impression has stayed with me. There was a old time Constable who was challenged with a mental defective armed with a meat cleaver decades ago. He used to tell us that he had worked in a butchering yard. He told us too that a meat cleaver is a extremely dangerous CQB weapon. He put the meat cleaver wielding mental defective into the ground. He said later on in a class, "Bi-Polar? Buy 6 feet of real estate."
 
A bi-polar can kill you real quick.
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So can a "normal" person, or a runaway dump truck. Comparing bi-polar people to homicidal maniacs is apples to oranges. Bi-polar folks may or may not have violent tendencies (most don't). It's just that, when they do, they're frequently more dangerous because they can't think about their actions before they act. Their minds can't scream "stop & think!" before they pull the trigger / throw the knife/cleaver / detonate the bomb.

Mentally ill people are just that: People suffering illness. Some are dangerous, most aren't. I'd really hate to see it come to the point where we immediately think of pulling a gun because someone mentions mental illness :( . It is only one factor among many to be considered when we even think of deploying deadly force.

Sir William

I noticed :) . I really hope I never encounter one!
 
I have experience in having an uncle who was kicked in the head by a horse just prior to WWII. I grew up sometimes seeing my uncle as a hardworking farmer, the man who taught me how to drive a tractor, operate a PTO and about crops and animals. I also saw him in a straitjacket, drooling and as mad as a hatter with fresh mercury. Mental instability is truly a evolving illness. Drugs help some, therapy can aid in treatment but, there is never a cure. A close friend is a field services social worker. He says that he intends to use the Miami shooting as a reason to convince Bi-Polar clients to take their medications.
 
Wow has this thread taken on a life... :rolleyes:
People, does it matter? Bi-polar disorder, paranoid schizophrenic, manic-depressive, ADHD(my personal overused favorite), crazed meth head, terrorist= threat to my or my family's well being. Same answer every time.
;)
 
Sir William, speaking of tomahawks and cleavers, have you ever used a good hefty Ontario Knife Company machete?

I have one that I picked up at a gun show, and I had never used it until this year when dealing with some fallen tree branches. That think is WICKED at penetrating, and I'm talking about WOOD. I can just imagine how easily it would damage a human body. Kinda chilling.


-azurefly
 
Those are an interesting item. I haven't been able to find one in my part of the world. I would not want a enraged attacker to come after me with one. A similar weapon were what Moro tribesmen armed themselves with in the PI. A dose of drugs, a edged weapon and zeal was all they required in tactics.armament and purpose. Remember, anbody can pick up Henckels cutlery or a Glock knife, no NICS required. www.coldsteel.com
 
I don't care who's running at me with a knife, if they start charging at me, they have made their own decision on their fate. I have no choice in the matter.
 
Situational Awareness...........

is what it all boils down to... as the scenario unfolds (as written) you are aware of a injured victim, a split second later you are being approached with an exposed deadly weapon AND the persons demeanor is aggressive ( "wildeyed, breathing hard, direct eye contact") you now are in imminent danger of bodily harm and / or death..in my state I do not have the duty to retreat in a public place......... shoot till he falls, no counting rounds no failure drill, no double or triple taps plain and simple shoot till the threat is removed. In this scenario when his aggressive foward movments cease !!
and above all Do not forget about the man #3 (the "sane" ??? brother) here no telling what his reaction will be (especially in the case of "bi-polar" where it is proven to be at least partially hereditary) now that you have just shot his sibling he may not act accordingly with he situation. NOW cell phone 911 you must call (even tho at least 100 others did) and lawyer up when the cavalry arrives period !!!

secondly in the case of the airline in Florida:

Dymanic situation handling is best explained as working with a small limited muscle and mental flow chart however keep in mind the end result is ONCE YOU ENGAGE THERE IS NO TURNING BACK NOR ANY PLACE FOR SECOND GUESSING ! COMMITMENT IS 150% AT ALL TIMES OR YOU WILL BE DEAD

Having not had specific air mashall training i can only speculate, but it probally went something like this..............cabin disturbance, respond, threat assessment (2 threats: screaming wife and perp), one threat compliant / neutralized, 2nd noncompliant, locale moving, still noncompliant threat escalated, further noncompliance threat at max reaching for bag !!!!...........Breathe Relax Acquire Slack Squeeze........ clear !!

For the record I have been in a few dynamic situations before in my life one of which was a a close compilation of the the two (airline and cleaver). the most valuable lessons learned were 1) complacency will make you a victim 2) second guessing will make you dead 3) under stress you will perform as you train, high stress makes simple conscious thoughts obscure

especially #3 that is why alot (the % escapes me) of eye witnesses are unreliable (wholely or in part) as to what they saw and / or heard
vs. the events that actually factually took place.



one last thing...........the reality of the air marshall engagment is that it probally was a sad case of "suicide by cop" bi-polar people have 30% more brain activity than the normally adjusted human and with respect to their "manic" episodes can use this to impulsively to get what they want, combine that with he could have had bi-polar II (one that has mixed episodes of mania and depression) and it would have taken very little time to plan and execute his demise with success. My thoughts of sorrow are with the widow and the two feds they are the ones that will suffer the most
 
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