Bi-Polar ? Shoot/Don't shoot

When a person is forced to make the decision to take a life, that person is evaluating the events they are experiencing right then, right there, with no discrimination of what may have set the events in motion.
He is holding a large cleaver. He is wildeyed and breathing hard. He is looking around the area. He makes eye contact with you and starts forward straight at you.
This, along with the previous person running past bleeding is enough justification to draw a weapon and stop the threat. Period. No prozac, no exelon, no lithium. I have a limited amount of empathy for the mentally ill. If they do not want to stay on their meds and function within society then they need to be taken out of society. If they are on a murderous rampage, a dose of 230 grain JHP works better than the latest medication de jour in a crisis such as this. I do not absolve the mentally ill of their criminal activity. To do so gives thousands of criminals, whether mentally ill or not carte blanch to do as they please.
Call me a grumpy old fart. I've worked with these living excuse factories for years. I'm sick of it. Hold them accountable.
 
I don't care if he's bipolar, schizophrenic, or has a hangnail. If they are a threat, they need to be neutralized. I'm not going to ask for a doctor's note before firing, and neither should anyone else.

Tom
 
OK, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but why is this even a question? Regardless of the circumstances/reason, you are in jeopardy.

This is why we carry weapons.
 
Springmom wrote:
One of the things I have encountered, both with my own son and with clients when I was a school psychologist, is the phenomenon of getting off meds when they're on an upswing. Not a "manic" episode necessarily; it may simply be a matter of having been nice and stable and normal for quite awhile. The person then thinks, "Great, I'm cured" and gets off the meds (usually without even tapering the dose). Sometimes there is no backlash. Sometimes it takes a week or two and then they're back to clear bipolar symptoms.
Very true. One of the hallmarks of a bi-polar person is that they are highly impulsive. They act without thinking. I have a 35 yr. old nephew that is bi-polar, and springmom hit it square on the head. My nephew was un-diagnosed up until about 15 yrs. ago. Nobody in the family had a clue. He had an interest in firearms and on his 21st birthday, I judged him as mature and competent enough to own one. I bought him a .22LR bolt action rifle, a real tack driver, and 6 months later, he put the muzzle in his mouth and pulled the trigger. Somehow, he survived it (surgeons said nothing less than a bona fide miracle). I asked him the obvious question: Why? He said he just got tired of life and did it without thinking about it.

He's on meds now and drives tractor trailer cross country, but every now & then, he does exactly as springmom said. He gets cocky, says "I feel great and don't need the damned meds", and the roller coaster starts all over again. I'm torn between feeling badly for him and wanting to throttle him.

If a bi-polar person decides to go postal, their impulsiveness is what makes them so dangerous. The decision is made without higher brain functions being engaged and you're facing a machine that's programmed itself to kill you. There's no debating with them, no pleading, no reasoning. Truly a tragic situation, but one regrettably that must be met with deadly force :( .
 
Any Bi-Polar person who has been diagnosed and has a proven history of deciding "I don't need no stinking meds" needs to be committed for the safety of society. Sorry folks but that person is a time bomb that is certain to explode due to their own willful negligence. I would be willing to bet that if they knew they would be locked up for going off the meds they would be a little more dutiful in taking them. Perhaps regular tests to insure steady medication levels in their blood would also be justified...
 
Perhaps regular tests to insure steady medication levels in their blood would also be justified.
Actually, that is done. Some of the meds used can be lethal in improper doses, so close tabs must be kept to make sure the patient is clearing them out.

The problem is it is not illegal to go off meds, therefore, the taking of the meds cannot be forced. However, we can do away with the insanity defen.... uh, sorry, the insanity excuse.

I had a couple of patients in the past who were ordered by the courts to recieve a monthly injection of Cogentin D. If they did not show up, the police were notified, and a warrant was given. I do not know what would have happened had they not shown up, they always did. That was years ago, I don't think Cogentin is even used now........
 
While I feel sorry for everyone involved, this guy didn't have a sign on his chest saying "I'm off my meds, so don't worry about what I say or do". His wife I believe was shouting he had some sort of mental disorder, don't shoot. (or something to that effect) Isn't anyone that would/does this sort of thing have some sort of "disorder"? If I were involved with someone that HAD to take meds, bipolar or what ever, I'd make damn sure they took their meds... I would love them enough to make them take it! I don't really buy the, you can't make them take their meds thing. Again I'm sorry it ever had to happen, but what were these marshals to do, what IF he'd had a bomb, gun, knife? Try to explain later that they were more afraid they'd hurt the guy, or stop what they were there to stop/prevent.. How far would this person have gotten on an El Al (sp) flight, the planes doorway??
CraigJS
 
shoot/ dont shoot?

shoot to kill without hesitation. Victims of bi polar perps are just as much victims as had the perp been sane.
 
Emotional state is irrelevant at the time that an individual poses a serious immenent threat to life or limb.
 
Why would his bi-polar/unmedicated state matter any more to me, as I am under immediate threat of being dismembered to death, than if he was attacking random people (myself included) because his girlfriend broke up with him, or his wife died in the World Trade Center, or the IRS was gonna take his house?

Reasons be damned, all I have to know is that if I don't put him down, he'll put me down. That settles it for me.

So sorry he was mentally ill. Couldn't he have just been quaintly mentally ill, like Rain Man? :p

Noooo, he had to be psychotically mentally ill.

Not my problem, though. The cleaver being swung in my direction is my problem, and I would deal with it effectively.


-azurefly
 
Capt. Charlie, I have a close friend who is Bi-Polar. He has been talked out of a barricaded trailer before. He has spent periods in psych wards and the VA hospital. When he is on his meds, he is a truck driver also. I wonder why this is not a issue in re the CDL? I have been target shooting with my friend. He is a good shot. Yes, his wife owns the firearms. We have gone hunting and varminting together. I trust him but, if he evidences insane behaviour while I am around him, triple tap. As a LEO, you are aware of what the MDs (mentally defective) are capable of. I hope you never have to make such a decision. I have made up my mind, I would miss my friend but, it would not be my friend that would endanger me.
 
..why would anyone stand up and say he has a bomb on a plane...and anyone suffering from some disorder to compel him to say he has a bomb should not get on a plane without a muzzle on him....I can imagine how terrified the other passangers felt at the moment..maybe thinking it was their last...if the marshall hesitated in shooting and the man detonated a bomb...those yelling how wrong to shoot would instead be yelling how wrong to not shoot....was it the marshall's fault that the man had a mental problem...and made a false impression?...of course not.
 
I don't know, Sir William. Mental illness is something that's a total mystery to me. Things like Tourette's Syndrome, for example. People with that don't just ramble, they come out with the most obscene, inappropriate language at the worst possible times, almost as though someone else planned it. They say psychology is a science, but I think it's a guessing game and they're still basically in the dark ages when it comes to diagnosis and treatment.

None the less though, just because a person suffers mental illness doesn't mean they're automatically prone to violence. My nephew is one of the kindest, gentlest people going. His behavior was purely self-destructive, and I don't believe he'd resort to violence against another even to save his own backside.

But as I said, those who do have violent tendencies are even more dangerous because of their lack of judgment, and inability to comprehend the consequences. At least from my experience with my nephew, bi-polar disorder involves bouts of severe depression followed by periods of extreme high spirits. If anything, they're more of a danger to themselves than to anybody else. Lord only knows what the man the sky marshalls shot was thinking, but I don't believe his real intentions involved actual violence to others. That's what makes this such a tragedy. Still, given the circumstances, and not being able to read the man's mind, the sky marshalls had no other reasonable choice.
 
Shoot and be alive to feel bad about it in the morning.

If the brother was saying that he had a mental disorder it would probaly heighten my fear factor make my mind up faster.

I'm no expert, the only first hand experience I have with mental disorders is a cousin.
He was the absolute kindest man you would ever meet unless he was off the medication.
Then he had an incredible unpredictable temper and, at 155 pounds, the strength to pick up a 290 cousin a body slam him repeatedly.
It took four 200+ pound men to pull him off and hold him down
 
I don't know, Sir William. Mental illness is something that's a total mystery to me. Things like Tourette's Syndrome, for example. People with that don't just ramble, they come out with the most obscene, inappropriate language at the worst possible times, almost as though someone else planned it. They say psychology is a science, but I think it's a guessing game and they're still basically in the dark ages when it comes to diagnosis and treatment.

LOL. I often thought so when I was in practice. :eek:

On a slight off-topic detour: Tourette's actually involves involuntary tics. What you are thinking of is a verbal tic. It is rarely a matter of obscenities (forget Bill Murray in "What About Bob?") but may be barking, yelping, laughing, or any of a variety of other noises. Obscenities are rare.

Back on topic... You are quite correct, that the lack of judgement and impulsivity can be both self-destructive and dangerous. If, for example, a person becomes 'manic' and drives 100 mph down city streets because it's fun and he feels invincible, well, it isn't just himself he endangers.

That said, I am APPALLED at the suggestions on this forum that individuals should be FORCED BY LAW to take medication. Not kidding. Do we or do we not stand for individual liberty as gun owners? Since when do we want to give the government the right to force psychotropic medications into ANYBODY??? If an individual is so deranged as to be an IMMEDIATE danger (suicidal or homicidal) then that is the exception, but to require someone to take a medication that may have horrible side effects (and the medications for bipolar and its frequently-associated cousins do indeed have awful side effects in some individuals) is NOT what this country is about.

An individual who chooses not to take their medication usually makes that choice not when they're deranged, but rather when they are feeling well, when they have been asymptomatic for a long time and thus hope that it has "gone away". Bipolar usually is a life-long illness and so that hope is usually (note I said 'usually') false, and so the individual will end up relapsing. I know from bitter experience the wish to throttle the one who refuses his meds!!!! But the important thing is for that person to (1) have a support system that can be there to intervene if possible and (2) to understand, while they are sane and symptom-free, what the consequences of NOT taking that medication might be in the future. IOW, they need to make an informed choice. That done, if they then refuse it they then take the consequences of those actions when or if they occur.

We believe in freedom and dignity of the citizens of this country. We don't force medication on people, we don't force them to have blood tests to ensure they're doing what WE tell them. If the government has that kind of power, does anybody on this forum think for a SECOND that YOU are immune from that power being used against YOU when YOU are inconvenient, difficult, or out of the mainstream??? :eek:

And one more time: I believe the air marshals did EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING. God only knows what was in that man's head, but what he SAID made him a risk, and his refusal to stop after repeated warnings led to the sad but inevitable conclusion of the affair.

Springmom
 
Going to the question, I see a man armed with a knife who is wild eyed and charging at me. Someone running behind him shouts, "He's bipolar."

Does it matter to me that he's bipolar? No. He's a threat first, bipolar second. So, does him being bipolar mean that I should accept a greater risk of injury or death? Of course not. My life comes first. His life comes second. I want to go home alive and unhurt. I want him to go home too alive and unhurt too but I don't want him to go home alive and unhurt as much I want it for myself. He takes a sorry second and so yes, I'll shoot.
 
maybe the guy WANTED to die. maybe he just couldnt do it him self so screamed he had a bomb knowing the air marshalls would shoot him dead?
 
not if it's your husband...

...or your son, or wife, or daughter. I don't think even the super-tough I-can-take-'em-down types that sometimes pontificate about how some people deserve to die and they wouldn't give it a second thought, would be able to do that.

I couldn't have. Not when Middle Son threatened to take his own life, not when he threatened to take mine. We got him to the hospital and died inside later.

Springmom
 
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