Jeff22....I'm a Fed LEO....I know of very few fed and state-level investigators that carry flashlights; in fact I'm the only one I know that does....having one has helped me during warrant executions and simunition drills at FLETC or follow-on courses. I agree with you, a good light (like a mag or revolver reload, a good folding knife, a set of cuff and keys) is needed by LEO's...not to have one is just one this tool that will be needed when you need it most.
Better shot than law enforcement?
- Thread starter Metellus
- Start date
Hmmmmm OK, my experience from a couple of years back, before Ohio had CCW and LONG before the AWB expired...
Was shooting in my local indoor range with my 1911 Champion model Springfield, and I have my Vaquero .357 in my bag. Guy in next lane has a Glock of some sort...don't remember which one, but he seemed to shoot A LOT before changing mags...15/16/17 but I don't see any holes showing up on his standard (B-27??) target, but I see a couple on the edge of my carboard backing sheet.
We start talking, and he says his "Agency" has all field folks carrying. Finally admits he is a Dept of Agriculture Agent, but doesn't say whether state or fed. Is whining about how inaccurate his "Clock" pistol is. I give him my 1911, and he manages to put 1 of 7 rounds on the paper, but NOT in the black AT 7 YARDS. I shoot his "Clock", and all of mine are in the 8-ring, on an 11x17 (B-34Revised black edges, white center) sillouhette, not the huge honkin' B-27 target he is using. I also punch 6 holes inside the 9-ring with my short-barrel "Sheriff's Model" [3-1/2" barrel glossy stainless] Vaquero.
Diplomatically, I suggest that perhaps the sights "are maybe a bit off, for your grip and stance. Here, try a couple of these targets, I sometimes have trouble lining up my sights on a black target center."
"Harrumpf!" he snorts, reloads a mag & chambers one, then stuffs gun in his waistband, NO HOLSTER, AKA "Mexican Carry" and leaves.
Was shooting in my local indoor range with my 1911 Champion model Springfield, and I have my Vaquero .357 in my bag. Guy in next lane has a Glock of some sort...don't remember which one, but he seemed to shoot A LOT before changing mags...15/16/17 but I don't see any holes showing up on his standard (B-27??) target, but I see a couple on the edge of my carboard backing sheet.
We start talking, and he says his "Agency" has all field folks carrying. Finally admits he is a Dept of Agriculture Agent, but doesn't say whether state or fed. Is whining about how inaccurate his "Clock" pistol is. I give him my 1911, and he manages to put 1 of 7 rounds on the paper, but NOT in the black AT 7 YARDS. I shoot his "Clock", and all of mine are in the 8-ring, on an 11x17 (B-34Revised black edges, white center) sillouhette, not the huge honkin' B-27 target he is using. I also punch 6 holes inside the 9-ring with my short-barrel "Sheriff's Model" [3-1/2" barrel glossy stainless] Vaquero.
Diplomatically, I suggest that perhaps the sights "are maybe a bit off, for your grip and stance. Here, try a couple of these targets, I sometimes have trouble lining up my sights on a black target center."
"Harrumpf!" he snorts, reloads a mag & chambers one, then stuffs gun in his waistband, NO HOLSTER, AKA "Mexican Carry" and leaves.
Most police that I know consider their guns part of the uniform and are not great shots. They also do not make that much money to afford spending it on bullets for practice versus for their families. No matter who you are or how good you shoot if someone is shooting back your percentage of accuracy will decrease. If they do stay and shoot back or even stay in the area they deserve credit. Administratively, police should be given time and bullets to become better but sometimes police are not even provided ranges to practice on much less time and bullets. I am glad I can shoot because if the danger is current it may be many minutes for the police to arrive and a lot can happen in minutes. Not their fault but police ussually arrive after the shooting anyway.
CarbineCaleb
New member
It's that killer corn! Homicidal hogs! Terrifying tomatoes!
Yes, I am a better shot than my Brother in Law, who is FBI.
Actually, I should specify that my offhand, slow-fire groups were tighter than his. In other, more important ways, he could clean my clock.
We went shooting together at our last family reunion. I shot his Glock, offhand, slow-fire, and made smaller groups than he did, consistently.
I think, then, he decided to show off...
He showed me how he trains. He could draw from concealment, and put 4 rounds on target, in a palm-sized group, at 10 yards, in something like 2 seconds. I don't remember exactly, but I remember being astounded. Just amazed me. Looked and sounded a little like Jerry Miculek's video.
He explained that speed from the draw and multiple rounds on target are likely the critical factors in a successful defense. So that's how the FBI has him train.
And that changed the way I train.
Actually, I should specify that my offhand, slow-fire groups were tighter than his. In other, more important ways, he could clean my clock.
We went shooting together at our last family reunion. I shot his Glock, offhand, slow-fire, and made smaller groups than he did, consistently.
I think, then, he decided to show off...
He showed me how he trains. He could draw from concealment, and put 4 rounds on target, in a palm-sized group, at 10 yards, in something like 2 seconds. I don't remember exactly, but I remember being astounded. Just amazed me. Looked and sounded a little like Jerry Miculek's video.
He explained that speed from the draw and multiple rounds on target are likely the critical factors in a successful defense. So that's how the FBI has him train.
And that changed the way I train.
Depending on which "Department of Agriculture" we are talking about, they have jurisdiction over food stamp and benefits fraud, which amounts to zillions of dollars and a lot of drug and organized crime influence. They most definitely need to be armed. On the federal level the forest service is in agriculture and has a LE unit.
Funny story from my academy to illustrate a point about 4 officers firing on one BG.
One of my instructors (during communication instruction if I recall correctly) told us of his rookie days. He was in a smaller dept. and his FTO was a Sgt. (I think, not important though). They were talking one night about having to shoot. The Sgt. said "if you see/hear me shoot, start shooting." So one night they are out and happen to pull over a car that turns out to have a fugitive in it. Once they are out of the car, said BG tries to drive at/around them. Once BG drives past them, the Sgt. starts firing and instructs the rookie to do also. Rookie (my instructor) fires one shot striking BG in the head (not killed, but it stopped him). Sgt. yells "Holy @*&^, boy! I meant shoot the TIRES!"
All that to (make a laugh) say that if one LEO hollars "GUN!" and starts firing, it's a good bet those with said LEO will fire as well.
One of my instructors (during communication instruction if I recall correctly) told us of his rookie days. He was in a smaller dept. and his FTO was a Sgt. (I think, not important though). They were talking one night about having to shoot. The Sgt. said "if you see/hear me shoot, start shooting." So one night they are out and happen to pull over a car that turns out to have a fugitive in it. Once they are out of the car, said BG tries to drive at/around them. Once BG drives past them, the Sgt. starts firing and instructs the rookie to do also. Rookie (my instructor) fires one shot striking BG in the head (not killed, but it stopped him). Sgt. yells "Holy @*&^, boy! I meant shoot the TIRES!"
All that to (make a laugh) say that if one LEO hollars "GUN!" and starts firing, it's a good bet those with said LEO will fire as well.
N.H. Yankee
New member
Most L.E.O.'s do not get the trigger time we hardcore shooters achieve, and it may not be fair to compare their skills to a weekly shooter. My son is a federal agent and while he can shoot very well I have been shooting for 35 years and have shot in competition for years and can shoot circles around him. Most people in law enforcement view a gun as a tool and most feel the chance of them using it is slim. Some agents in my sons agency dont even wear vests because they feel the chance of being shot are very slim and they are not comfortable to wear. This is a fatalistic viewpoint and dangerous not only to themselve but other agents who depend upon them for support in a firefight.
When I shot in competition we regularly shot against local departments and sadly most were horrible. Having worked with a small dept I can say that most cops do not shoot regularly, only to qualify and when mandatory if it is at all and some have to shoot more than once to qualify. I have even seen fudging for some who couldn't qualify especially older officers who's eyesight was poor or had physical problems. This was in the 70's and hopefully this practice has been stopped. I think some cops are in denial when it comes to the prospect of using their gun. I think some departments do not put enough emphasis on how important it is to shoot regularly and not just when qualifying. My sons agency has a all the ammo you want to use at the range policy and whenever you wish to shoot, yet most agents are strangers to the range.
I tell my son he owes it not only to his fellow agents, but to his family, the public and his agency to keep his firearms safety knowledge and shooting skills sharp. I tell him when and if the time comes to use a weapon theres no time outs for pratice rounds. I had a local sheriff a few years back bring his gun to my house as I have a range and he stated he was concerned because the gun ( ruger GP100 ) wouldn't shoot. He was shooting at 7 yards and had a shotgun pattern with some misses. I setup my 25 yard target and shot a 10 shot 1 1/2 inch group off a benchrest, I then shot offhand and got a 3 inch group. I also made sure we used the same ammo he was using to make sure it wasnt poor ammo. I shot a few more groups to assure him it wasnt a fluke, he kept the 1 1/2 inch target and I asked him if he was going to tape it to the door of his cruiser to ward off the bad guys lol. He figured out he needed more trigger time, and I gave him some pointers on trigger squeeze, body stance and breathing. I told him in the meantime use the shotgun lol.
When I shot in competition we regularly shot against local departments and sadly most were horrible. Having worked with a small dept I can say that most cops do not shoot regularly, only to qualify and when mandatory if it is at all and some have to shoot more than once to qualify. I have even seen fudging for some who couldn't qualify especially older officers who's eyesight was poor or had physical problems. This was in the 70's and hopefully this practice has been stopped. I think some cops are in denial when it comes to the prospect of using their gun. I think some departments do not put enough emphasis on how important it is to shoot regularly and not just when qualifying. My sons agency has a all the ammo you want to use at the range policy and whenever you wish to shoot, yet most agents are strangers to the range.
I tell my son he owes it not only to his fellow agents, but to his family, the public and his agency to keep his firearms safety knowledge and shooting skills sharp. I tell him when and if the time comes to use a weapon theres no time outs for pratice rounds. I had a local sheriff a few years back bring his gun to my house as I have a range and he stated he was concerned because the gun ( ruger GP100 ) wouldn't shoot. He was shooting at 7 yards and had a shotgun pattern with some misses. I setup my 25 yard target and shot a 10 shot 1 1/2 inch group off a benchrest, I then shot offhand and got a 3 inch group. I also made sure we used the same ammo he was using to make sure it wasnt poor ammo. I shot a few more groups to assure him it wasnt a fluke, he kept the 1 1/2 inch target and I asked him if he was going to tape it to the door of his cruiser to ward off the bad guys lol. He figured out he needed more trigger time, and I gave him some pointers on trigger squeeze, body stance and breathing. I told him in the meantime use the shotgun lol.
Cops can shoot well just because they are Cops?????
The expectation that cops can shoot well just because they are cops is a mindset that has been moulded by movies and television. In the Old West (at least as portrayed on TV and in Movies), the Marshall or Sheriff was the quickes and best shot. He could kick butt, take names, and knock a fleeing felon off a horse at 100 yards with a hip shot from an old Colt Peacemaker.
Reality is another picture. I have spoken to State Troopers that have only had their gun out of the holster to clean it and shoot their mandatory rounds at the range. I have taken officers in to the ER (when ambulance driver) with GSW's in the cheek of their A$$ from playing with their weapons while holstered. We all have seen, or read, the accounts of LEO's vs.BG shootouts where hundreds of rounds have been expended with limited results.
It has been said by others here that the gun goes with the job but is not necessarily of primary interest to the officer. That being said, just being able to outshoot one at the range doesn't carry any special status. I am pleased with my level of skill and feel it will go a long way to protecting me if the time should come. Just remember what happens at the range is just that, at the range. When the SHTF, and your pants contain more than just your keys, wallet, and change,
it may very well be the Cop that didn't shoot well that comes through better, due to the training (and the ability to better control the bodily processes).
The expectation that cops can shoot well just because they are cops is a mindset that has been moulded by movies and television. In the Old West (at least as portrayed on TV and in Movies), the Marshall or Sheriff was the quickes and best shot. He could kick butt, take names, and knock a fleeing felon off a horse at 100 yards with a hip shot from an old Colt Peacemaker.
Reality is another picture. I have spoken to State Troopers that have only had their gun out of the holster to clean it and shoot their mandatory rounds at the range. I have taken officers in to the ER (when ambulance driver) with GSW's in the cheek of their A$$ from playing with their weapons while holstered. We all have seen, or read, the accounts of LEO's vs.BG shootouts where hundreds of rounds have been expended with limited results.
It has been said by others here that the gun goes with the job but is not necessarily of primary interest to the officer. That being said, just being able to outshoot one at the range doesn't carry any special status. I am pleased with my level of skill and feel it will go a long way to protecting me if the time should come. Just remember what happens at the range is just that, at the range. When the SHTF, and your pants contain more than just your keys, wallet, and change,
it may very well be the Cop that didn't shoot well that comes through better, due to the training (and the ability to better control the bodily processes). Wyo Cowboy
New member
A lot of LEOs do think of the weapon as just another piece of equiptment. When I went through Fed LEO training at FLETC one of the firearms instructors told me (over a couple of beers) that about 10 to 15% of the trainees are "gun guys (and gals)". These are the ones that are out at the range on their own time and dime. I'll stack them up against almost any civiy. Some of the non-gun type LEOs realise that marksmanship is a perishable skill and do make an effort to practice... some. 
Some would rather just leave the gun at home.
When I go to the local gun club almost no one knows that I'm a LEO. I'm just another gun nut who loves to shoot... almost anything. I've had the "Gun Expert" try to offer instruction without having seen me shoot. I've had the "IPSC Champ" try to clean my clock with his race gun. I've had the "MAll Ninja" tell me that my guns were crap and so was my stance, grip, hair style, etc. I just smile, keep my mouth shut, punch holes in paper and knock over the steel plates.
I requalified this week and was talking with a few others afterwards. The subject came up about 'just how much do you pratice' (we have to pay for our own practice ammo). One guy said that he shoots a couple of boxes just before he requals and that's about it. A couple others said that they try to shoot a box a month. I finally admitted that I reload my own and shoot about 600 to 800 rounds per month and use an airsoft copy of the HK in my basement when I can't get to the range. Oh, and the requal? I didn't drop a point. Practice makes... you better.
Some would rather just leave the gun at home. When I go to the local gun club almost no one knows that I'm a LEO. I'm just another gun nut who loves to shoot... almost anything. I've had the "Gun Expert" try to offer instruction without having seen me shoot. I've had the "IPSC Champ" try to clean my clock with his race gun. I've had the "MAll Ninja" tell me that my guns were crap and so was my stance, grip, hair style, etc. I just smile, keep my mouth shut, punch holes in paper and knock over the steel plates.
I requalified this week and was talking with a few others afterwards. The subject came up about 'just how much do you pratice' (we have to pay for our own practice ammo). One guy said that he shoots a couple of boxes just before he requals and that's about it. A couple others said that they try to shoot a box a month. I finally admitted that I reload my own and shoot about 600 to 800 rounds per month and use an airsoft copy of the HK in my basement when I can't get to the range. Oh, and the requal? I didn't drop a point.
Practice makes... you better.Bare Bones
New member
Some of you guys just don't get it
I saw this thread and told myself that it should be interesting to see how officers are preceived by members of the forum. Some of you just don't get it. In fact, most of you just don't get it.
Frank Dreblin gets it. A few others do too. If you are a police officer, you arn't training to increase your proficiency with firearms in the expectation that, at some point in the future, your chosen profession might possibly mandate that you utilize that firearm to protect the lives and property of the citizens who pay your salery. If you have an ounce of brains in that shell casing you use for a hat stand, you are practicing to make sure you and your partner get home at the end of the shift.
Weapons are a tool, yes. The are also the cheapist insurance policy you'll ever get. If you are in law enforcement, you best get that into your head.
The next thing you need to survive is situational awareness. If you are in patrol this means know your district and your bad guys. Don't seal up your squad against the heat or the cold. You don't want the last sound you hear is the glass breaking just before the bullet enters your body, huh?
A lot of people on this thread are making a big thing about about a variety of skills; some justifiably. The minimum requirement law enforcement demands is to show up when the call goes out and do your best for your brother officer. If it turns out that your best wasn't good enough to contain the situation of immediatly resolve the problem, you will find that your buddies will be tolerent of your shortcomings and work with you to improve. If you allow fear to incapacitate you or weaken your resolve, your best bet is the shrink and an outbound bus.
Sorry, I got a little wordy. Specifically, the average cop is not a target shooter per se. Such training does not drive the officer to form habits that will serve him well. There are many cases in point were fallen officers have been recovered at crime scenes with empty brass in their pockets. A product of faulty training. Same thing with empty revolver speedloaders. I could create quite a list of these types of shortcomings, but what I am getting at is that the officer must develope situational awareness and tactical responses that fit the street and are immediate. So guys, go on and out shoot that putz at the range and make your "informed" opinions about a person whose world you know little of. It probably makes you feel a little better and causes him no harm, but I would advise you not to rely on that opinion should the day come when you meet him confrontationally in his world...
I'm getting up there in years at this point in time. Sixty nine and counting and gravity and more than occasional beer are not having a slimming effect on my manly figure, but I still shoot occasionaly for the sheer fun of it and , if you mess with me and mine, I'll strive to drop you like a hot rock. If age and luck determine the outcome not in my favor, I'll trust the guys in blue to finish the job - not people who plink and form opinions of others
Oh, and Frank Dreblin : I'd partner with you anytime...
I saw this thread and told myself that it should be interesting to see how officers are preceived by members of the forum. Some of you just don't get it. In fact, most of you just don't get it.
Frank Dreblin gets it. A few others do too. If you are a police officer, you arn't training to increase your proficiency with firearms in the expectation that, at some point in the future, your chosen profession might possibly mandate that you utilize that firearm to protect the lives and property of the citizens who pay your salery. If you have an ounce of brains in that shell casing you use for a hat stand, you are practicing to make sure you and your partner get home at the end of the shift.
Weapons are a tool, yes. The are also the cheapist insurance policy you'll ever get. If you are in law enforcement, you best get that into your head.
The next thing you need to survive is situational awareness. If you are in patrol this means know your district and your bad guys. Don't seal up your squad against the heat or the cold. You don't want the last sound you hear is the glass breaking just before the bullet enters your body, huh?
A lot of people on this thread are making a big thing about about a variety of skills; some justifiably. The minimum requirement law enforcement demands is to show up when the call goes out and do your best for your brother officer. If it turns out that your best wasn't good enough to contain the situation of immediatly resolve the problem, you will find that your buddies will be tolerent of your shortcomings and work with you to improve. If you allow fear to incapacitate you or weaken your resolve, your best bet is the shrink and an outbound bus.
Sorry, I got a little wordy. Specifically, the average cop is not a target shooter per se. Such training does not drive the officer to form habits that will serve him well. There are many cases in point were fallen officers have been recovered at crime scenes with empty brass in their pockets. A product of faulty training. Same thing with empty revolver speedloaders. I could create quite a list of these types of shortcomings, but what I am getting at is that the officer must develope situational awareness and tactical responses that fit the street and are immediate. So guys, go on and out shoot that putz at the range and make your "informed" opinions about a person whose world you know little of. It probably makes you feel a little better and causes him no harm, but I would advise you not to rely on that opinion should the day come when you meet him confrontationally in his world...
I'm getting up there in years at this point in time. Sixty nine and counting and gravity and more than occasional beer are not having a slimming effect on my manly figure, but I still shoot occasionaly for the sheer fun of it and , if you mess with me and mine, I'll strive to drop you like a hot rock. If age and luck determine the outcome not in my favor, I'll trust the guys in blue to finish the job - not people who plink and form opinions of others
Oh, and Frank Dreblin : I'd partner with you anytime...
A lot of cops are not "gun people". In fact they make fun of the "tacklberrys" (Police Academy movie series). I once failed to qualify and I still haven't lived it down. Most cops hate to shoot. The women don't like having to clean the gun and the men don't want to give up their own time. Since I failed that one time, I make it a point to shoot at least once every other month.
Bare Bones--- I agree with you totally. Well, sort of. The reality of it all is that there are too many "on the job" that don't agree with what you said. They would just as soon leave the piece in the locker and unless the job requires them to carry when OD, they don't. Practice is as some others have said, the box they run through just to make sure they can re-qualify. When was the last time you saw a squad "opened up". I have lived and traveled extensively in Seattle, Denver, Portland, LA, SF, Phoenix, Tucson. Most times the only time the window is down is when the officer picks up his order at the drive through. Yes, there are a lot of good officers that have the same thoughts and dedication to the job as you expressed. Don't try and tell me that this is universal. Too many have been lucky. Unfortunately training (especially the kind that saves lives) is expensive. Since most Police Chiefs today are required to be administrators and live within a budget handed to them by political bean counters, the first thing that seems to get cut is training time. Next thing is 2-man patrol cars. I can't even remember the last time I saw an officer walking a beat (except in Seattle where they costumed two officers as turn of the century (1898-1903 era) cops and put them out in a tourist area.
My post was not intended to denigrate the LEO's as a group but to put into perspective the boast that was made about being able to outshoot one at the range. I don't question the desire of every officer out there on the job to discharge his/her duties to the best of their ability and most importantly, go home safely at the end of the day. Not all have the same skills and dedication to the job. Wouldn't it be nice if they did?
My post was not intended to denigrate the LEO's as a group but to put into perspective the boast that was made about being able to outshoot one at the range. I don't question the desire of every officer out there on the job to discharge his/her duties to the best of their ability and most importantly, go home safely at the end of the day. Not all have the same skills and dedication to the job. Wouldn't it be nice if they did?
CarlosDJackal
New member
This is freaking hilarious. I am wondering what the thread starter would have thought if he had observed three LEOs who happen to be good shooters instead of the three non-shootiers he did meet?
Three shooters do not in any way shape or form represent the whole LEO Community. But regardless of this, based on my experience teaching Basic Pistol Courses, the percentage of all gun owners who cannot shoot is probably the same as the percentage of all LEOs who also cannot shoot.
The fact of the matter is, the (good) shooters that you see at the range is probably the top 5% of all gun owners. Much like only about the top 5% of LEOs are decent shots because they like to shoot. JM2CW.
Three shooters do not in any way shape or form represent the whole LEO Community. But regardless of this, based on my experience teaching Basic Pistol Courses, the percentage of all gun owners who cannot shoot is probably the same as the percentage of all LEOs who also cannot shoot.
The fact of the matter is, the (good) shooters that you see at the range is probably the top 5% of all gun owners. Much like only about the top 5% of LEOs are decent shots because they like to shoot. JM2CW.
John Ringo
New member
I am actually in the process of becoming a LEO here in DC...but...
In my experience LEO shooting ability varies as it does with anyone. Most LEOs I know have never been in a "Dirty Harry" shootout per se. There are a lot of LEOs around the Washington DC Metro area that are very questionable in my book. There are tons and tons of agencies around here of every make and shape. My point is that marksmanship is probably wayyyyyy down on their list of priorities.
In my experience LEO shooting ability varies as it does with anyone. Most LEOs I know have never been in a "Dirty Harry" shootout per se. There are a lot of LEOs around the Washington DC Metro area that are very questionable in my book. There are tons and tons of agencies around here of every make and shape. My point is that marksmanship is probably wayyyyyy down on their list of priorities.