Better shot than law enforcement?

SamD,

I actually agree with 99.9% of evertyhing that you are saying. However what I'm saying is that police officers even with that crappy little bit of "exposure" are better suited to deal with a violent encounter than your average civilian without ANY exposure. I'm not saying it is overwhelming but I think it is enough that yes, once again given equal circumstances, I'll bet on the police officer to prevail. Again it's a safer bet though not a guaranteed one.

One thing that I failed to mention but just remembered was a pole done with criminals. The question was posed to them as to whom they would rather face in an armed confrontation. They overwhelmingly chose the police. I think because they perceived police to have greater constraints in the use of deadly force, whereas civilians were not viewed as having to operate within those same constraints, and thus had less inhibition of killing said criminal. Food for thought.

I wholeheartedly agree that police departments generally don't train "gunfighters" any more, nor do they actively seek their services. You and I may not like it, (I don't), but the times they have a changed since the days of the likes of Bill Jordan.

Best,
Dave
 
I was at the range yesterday, 2 lanes down from a LEO with his service weapon, looked like a Glock to me as I glanced down the line. This guy had shoot-n-see targets pasted on a piece of cardboard WAY down range and was blowing the center out of the targets over and over and over. This cop was one great shot. Was my only experience shooting with a LEO at the range with me. I felt humbled.
 
I've seen cops who shot better than I could dream to shoot. I've seen cops who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn from inside the barn.

Like anything else, ability and training combine to, hopefully, produce good results. And I've seen plenty of civilians who have far more training than 90% of cops.

By the way, most of the cops I've trained with had to pay for their own training. They also tended to be the best shots. I think that says a lot for the individual officer. And it also eliminates one of the myths about "cops being the best shooters." They aren't. The best shooters are those who are dedicated to learning how to most effectively use the tool they have chosen for defense of themselves and others. It just so happens that a lot of them happen to be cops.
 
Anybody think they could shoot like this off the range:

Police: Bar Owner Kills Two Robbers With Single Shot
Wayne County Prosecutor To Review Alleged Robbery, Shooting

POSTED: 8:03 p.m. EST November 3, 2003
UPDATED: 8:09 p.m. EST November 3, 2003

Two suspected robbers are dead after a former police officer and owner of a Detroit bar fired a single shot, Local 4 reported.
Video

The robbery and shooting happened early Sunday or late Saturday at Adela's place on the city's southwest side.

Police say the 49-year-old woman who owned the restaurant -- a retired Detroit cop who was a former member of Mayor Coleman Young's security team -- tried to hold the suspects in the parking lot until police arrived. But when the two men attempted to speed away, and nearly ran over one of her employees, she fired a single shot that apparently struck both men, according to police.

"We've had some robberies in that area. We have some evidence now that may indicate that someone was robbed there and assaulted there. There attempted to be another assault against one of the employees, before the owner of this establishment fired one shot in an attempt to stop a fleeing felon," said Detroit police Inspector Marilyn Hall-Beard.

The two men -- Dorian Gordillo, 22, and Rosalio Becera, 33 -- were later found dead from a bullet wound in a car parked on the Interstate 75 service drive, according to police.

One of the men was reportedly still holding a beer in his hand.

Family members of Gordillo and Becera were initially confused over their deaths, Local 4 reported.

"He was a very good guy. He would never look for trouble. I don't understand what happened. I hope we can find some answers," said Barbara Gordillo, the sister-in-law of one of the victims.

Officers who had responded to the incident at the bar wrote down the description of the car that left the scene and later made a match with the vehicle in which Gordillo and Becera were found dead, Local 4 reported.

While the shooting appeared to be justified, the Wayne County prosecutor was expected to review the case to determine if the bar owner would face charges.
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Over penetration issues??

I wonder if that was a case of overpenetration? Or was it a ricochet? What caliber gun was used?

I have never been in a situation like that, so I don't know if I could have done that cold.
 
Overpenetration???? She got both of them with one shot and the round stopped in the second guy...I would say it was "just right penetration"...It was a .38 Smith, carried Mexican style (no pun intended). Don't know what kind of round.

The bullet entered the left side of Gordillo's neck, just below his ear, according to the Wayne County medical examiner. It punctured his throat, exited the right side of his jaw and slammed into the left side of Becerra-Santoyo's chest, near the nipple.

The wounded Gordillo kept driving. He missed Cuevo by 2 feet as he sped through the gate, which had closed only halfway.
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Why do they have to say "slammed"?? I would have said "penetrated"......
 
How about you other range guys? Ever make a shot like that? How about this one: A police officer and her partner stopped a cab with a passenger they thought might have been involved in a robbery. As I recall, the police officer who did the shooting wasn't great at the range. The bad guy shot her partner through the throat and killed him. He then shot her below the vest and she went down. As he was running down the street, she dropped him with one shot to the back of the head from her Model 10 Smith from 15-20 yards away .

Anyone ever make a shot like that? These are just two cops I know. Cops make those kinds of shots every day across the country. How many range jockeys do?

How about this one. I knew this officer too:

Redford man convicted of murdering Detroit police officer


By David Shepardson / The Detroit News

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DETROIT -- A 23-year-old man was convicted Friday in the Feb. 12 stabbing death of Detroit Police Officer Mike Scanlon after a traffic stop.
A jury deliberated about five hours over two days before convicting Brian Joseph Bourne of second degree murder and the felony murder of a police officer after a six-day trial in front of Judge Prentis Edwards, a court clerk said Friday.
Scanlon, 35, a father of two, was stabbed 10 times after a scuffle following a traffic stop in Redford Township.
Bourne broke free while Scanlon was frisking him, police said. Scanlon caught up to Bourne in a back yard, and a struggle ensued in which Bourne was shot in the stomach.
Bourne denied stabbing Scanlon. He told the jury Thursday that two friends stabbed the officer.
Bourne has faced numerous run-ins with the law.
In 1991, at age 11, Bourne was found guilty of first-degree criminal sexual conduct and committed to a youth home, juvenile court records show. He spent time in three juvenile facilities before his release in April 1999 to his grandparents.
Bourne had a series of other criminal scrapes involving driving and drugs.
Bourne faces mandatory life in prison when he is sentenced on Oct. 15 by Edwards.
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Anyone ever pull a shot like this off? Ever practice firing while being stabbed in the throat 9 or 10 times?

Another oldie but goodie: Ever practice at the range shooting someone while you're undressing? Or is it usually shooting someone else while THEY'RE undressing!!

Off-duty officer kills suspected carjacker

Detroit patrolman hurt in exchange of gunfire; second suspect arrested

By David G. Grant / The Detroit News

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DETROIT --- An off-duty Detroit Police officer shot and killed a suspected carjacker early Wednesday morning during an exchange of gunfire in which the officer also was seriously wounded.

The officer, whom police declined to identify, was shot in the back, foot and thigh and he is listed in good condition at Grace/Sinai Hospital in Detroit.

Investigators said the shooting happened about 12:10 a.m., minutes after the officer and a friend had left the B.M.G. bar on Burt Road, got into the officer's car and drove a short distance down the street. In the 8800 block of Burt Road, just north of Joy, the officer stopped his vehicle.

"The officer stopped his car to change a CD when two men in a car drove up alongside them," said Cmdr. Craig Schwartz, head of the Major Crimes Division.

Schwartz said the passenger in the suspect's car jumped out, pointed a gun at the officer, who is assigned to the 10th (Livernois) Precinct, and his friend and told both men to get out and to take their clothes off.

While the officer and his friend were disrobing, the gunman was distracted and the officer pulled out his pistol and fired several shots at the gunmen, Schwartz said.

Both men exchanged gunfire and the officer was hit three times. The gunman, who has not been identified, died in Grace/Sinai Hospital. The officer's friend was not injured.

The gunman's accomplice, a 22-year-old Center Line man who was driving the car, sped away but was arrested later when the car he was driving was spotted by police in the area.
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One of my favorites: Anyone ever shoot all three guys who robbed you after being shot?

Robbed ex-cop kills suspect

In critical condition, he wounds two other teens
June 6, 2003






BY BEN SCHMITT AND CECIL ANGEL
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITERS




A retired Detroit police officer shot and killed a man and wounded two others early Thursday morning after being robbed outside an east side bar, police said.

Robert Strickland was walking toward the Elbow Lounge on the 7300 block of Macknear Field in Detroit at 12:50 a.m. when he was approached by three teens. One brandished a gun and demanded money, said Homicide Inspector Craig Schwartz.

Strickland, 57, gave the young men $80 and credit cards. One of the teens then fired at Strickland, striking him in the stomach, Schwartz said.

The teens fled. Strickland opened fire with two handguns he was carrying legally -- a .25-caliber and a 9mm -- Schwartz said. He fired 17 shots, striking the 15-year-old suspect in the back and an 18-year-old suspect in the back of the left leg. The third suspect, Antonio Harris, 18, was killed after being struck in the head, Schwartz said. All three were from Detroit.

Stephanie Henry, a bartender at the Elbow Lounge, was working when she heard gunshots. She said she she kept working because it didn't sound close by and the bar has had little trouble with crime.

"It's a nice place," she said.

A moment later, Strickland, a regular customer, walked in and sat in the chair at the end of the bar nearest the door, Henry said. He appeared calm.

"He just sat down and told me to call the police," she said.

She barely remembers what happened after she found out he had been shot. "It was a scary feeling," she said.

The two wounded suspects were listed in temporarily serious condition Thursday night at St. John Detroit Riverside Hospital. Strickland was in critical but stable condition at Detroit Receiving Hospital. All three are expected to live, Schwartz said.

The wounded suspects were questioned by police. They face felony charges, including armed robbery.

No charges are expected against Strickland, Schwartz said.

Strickland, who lives in Detroit, joined the department in 1967 and retired as a sergeant on disability in 1986.

He had worked in the 11th (Davison) Precinct.
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Moral of the story: You don't know if you're a "good shot" until the day you have to shoot someone who is stabbing you in the throat, or who is holding a shotgun on you while you're taking off your drawers, or until three animals come up on you and shoot you AFTER you hand over your wallet or who just killed your partner and shot you and is now running down the street while you're bleeding. THAT'S who a "good shooter" is. And if you can do all these things at about a .16 BAC, you're a REALLY good shooter....Just kidding....
 
How about you other range guys? Ever make a shot like that?
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Well, I tried convincing a couple of my friends to sit in a car so I could try, but they weren't very cooperative with helping me practice... :(
 
Well, I haven't seen any LEOs shooting. But I can beleive that there is a broad distribution of talent, experience, training there - some top notch, some lousy, most competent.

I have seen a good number of civilians shoot though. I would say that 3/4+ of them are doing good to stay on paper at 25 feet. And those are the ones who visit the range, rather than have their gun sitting in closet or nightstand for the last n-years. :D

When I took my required pistol class, I was truely dismayed at the lack of maturity and general common sense of my (civilian) classmates. I had been under the impression we'd have a live-fire portion of the class - it turned out be an electronic simulator. When I asked the instructor why no live fire, he answered, and I will quote:
Take a look around you, (Carbine), these guys aren't real bright. Would you like to be standing next to one of them on the range while they were handling a loaded firearm?
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After a little reflection, I decided he was right :D In addition, he said that he wears an armored vest in the live fire classes that they offer due to the "skills" of the students. :eek: :D
 
When I took my required pistol class, I was truely dismayed at the lack of maturity and general common sense of my (civilian) classmates. I had been under the impression we'd have a live-fire portion of the class - it turned out be an electronic simulator. When I asked the instructor why no live fire, he answered, and I will quote:
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Haa...I believe you......A retired cop friend of mine took a CCW class, thinking he had to to get his permit when he retired. This was during a time when MI's CCW for cops law was in a state of change....Poor gun didn't need to take the class after all...It was taught by a Sheriff's deputy (off duty) who really didn't know what he was doing. Cost him something like $150.00 and they never shot real guns....they shot airsoft or something like that....Silly...
 
My class was required by MA for the pistol permit. The instructor was really pretty good, and I thought the class was worthwhile.

The simulation was, for a simulation, actually pretty danged cool. The guns were modified semiautos with electronics stuffed into the grip... they made a bang sound and even recoiled when shot at a big electronic projection screen, and after each string of shots, the instructor could show us the positions of our strikes on the screen, in the sequence they were shot for diagnostics, using a computer interface. It was a very nice system, and I think would be useful even for experienced shooters.

And, I am glad that those guys weren't all holding loaded firearms :D The average age was actually roughly 35, but I felt like I was sitting in a high school classroom. It was bad, real bad... :barf:
 
The Diallo shoot was a justified shoot. It's unfortunate, but it happened. Keeping that in mind, it shouldn't matter how many times you shoot the threat, as long as it hasn't stopped. I don't care how many times I have to shoot something to stop it. When the S@#t comes down, I'm not counting rounds, and I'm not stopping until the threat stops. If that means emptying 5 of my magazines, then using close combat, that's what it means.
 
"The Diallo shoot was a justified shoot"

Come on now. An unarmed man, with no record, is shot multiple times( gee Frank, how many was it?) by 4 cops, at point blank range, and thats 'justifiable'? Geez
Guess the jury nor the NYPD agrees with you. The city paid, and the police revamped their prodedures.
 
I would say on average only about 10% of cops are real gun nuts and that average probably drops more the farther east you go. They are the ones who make up most of the notable shooters and firearms instructors.
However, all have received excellent basic training in firearms. Problem is like anything else, is ongoing training and maintaining proficiency with a busy work schedule and other priorities that make training take a backseat to other requirements. Afterall how many cops from a given academy class still maintain the same level of physical fitness they achieved by the time they graduated?
Those who have a real interest in shooting are going to take the time to practice maintain those skills. Those who don't are going to muddle their way through at qualification time.
 
Perception and reality. As a member of the security industry I lack perception as do most people in the industry. I shoot weekly and attand at least four combat shooting courses a year,which I pay for. I do this because I take pride in what I do and am a professional . I also am a high ranking blackbelt and continue to train at least twice a week in the arts as I've been doing for over 20 years. What I've learned in life is this , labels are just that, labels. Very few of us are objective, most people see with their minds not with their eyes. I found regardless of my 1000 hours of documented training and my collage degrees when one puts on a uniform saying security the perception is your just a guard. I understand perception is everything. I judge people not by their labels but their ability.
 
Mannlicher,

Like I said, it's unfortunate, but it happened. As for the jury nor the NYPD agreeing with me, last I knew the officers were cleared of wrongdoing in an internal investigation AND in their criminal trial. A NY jury of 7 white men, 1 white woman, and 4 black women found that the officers were justified in fatally shooting Diallo.

They thought he was armed with a gun. As for him not having a record-what the hell does that have to do with anything? I guess they should have tried to do a record check when they were in fear for their lives, huh? Hey-if I thought someone had a gun and wasn't responding to my commands-I'd just assume it was a misunderstanding-he probably has a clean record and I'd leave. Everyone starts out with a clean record, then they commit crimes and get the prestigous record. How about the Columbine kids-they couldn't be a threat because they were just kids...

It's a horrible thing that happened, but it happened.
 
the Diallo Shooting

I attended an Officer Survival Class presented by the S&W Academy back in the summer of 2000. The Diallo shooting was discussed during the class. I don't know all the facts of this incident, but we were told at the class that the major tactical issue involved in this mistake of fact shooting was that the NYPD cops DID NOT have flashlights with them, so they weren't able to illuminate Diallo as they challenged him.

Does anybody know if this is true or not? Not having a high intensity light on your person when attempting to perform law enforcement tasks at night is careless at best and negligent at worst. Having a light available might have prevented the whole tragedy. You don't use deadly force to respond to a perceived threat until you can identify that there IS a threat.

(Before someone accuses me of being "anti-police" I should point out that I AM the police, an officer since 1981 and a firearms instructor since 1982. Counting the security officer job I had while I was in college, I have worked the 11pm-7am midnight shift since August of 1977 so I'm quite aware of the tactical dynamics involved in challenging unknown people presenting a potential threat in the dark.)
 
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