best man stopper (9mm hp or 45 ball)
- Thread starter malachi
- Start date
- Status
azredhawk44
Moderator
I would venture that they would be equally effective.
A .45 FMJ would expand to about .50 and possibly overpenetrate its target, spilling its energy into the next object behind the target or the ground.
A 9mm +p hp will also expand to around .50, but will shed a lot of energy doing so. Also, due to its lower weight, it will only partially penetrate. Not so good on a 250lb samoan, but great on a 140lb crack addict.
A .45 FMJ would expand to about .50 and possibly overpenetrate its target, spilling its energy into the next object behind the target or the ground.
A 9mm +p hp will also expand to around .50, but will shed a lot of energy doing so. Also, due to its lower weight, it will only partially penetrate. Not so good on a 250lb samoan, but great on a 140lb crack addict.
Lawyer Daggit
New member
Unfair comparison- why not compare ball to ball or soft point to soft point.
Blue Heeler
Moderator
9mm JHP would do better. More damage, provided there was no heavy clothing being worn - and I mean H e a v y.
9mm dosent have more energy than a 38 sp
That was one reasion the 45 ACP came out, turn of the century US millitary was fighting some indians in the jungle of south america or some place I dont remember where. They took some drug which allowed them to take 38 rounds to the chest and really diddnt slow them down. Many had 2 or more rounds in them and they still cut the American solders to peices with there mechettes.
With the 45 ACP this diddnt happen often enough. The 45 has higher energy level but not as good balistic coefficient (higher drag). 9mm has better penetration but lets face it Bigger is better.
That was one reasion the 45 ACP came out, turn of the century US millitary was fighting some indians in the jungle of south america or some place I dont remember where. They took some drug which allowed them to take 38 rounds to the chest and really diddnt slow them down. Many had 2 or more rounds in them and they still cut the American solders to peices with there mechettes.
With the 45 ACP this diddnt happen often enough. The 45 has higher energy level but not as good balistic coefficient (higher drag). 9mm has better penetration but lets face it Bigger is better.
rgoudy1975
Moderator
Neither if they miss, both if they hit. 
azredhawk44
Moderator
I'd say, dollar for dollar, it is a fair comparison.
PMC or Winchester .45acp FMJ costs about $15 a box in a gun shop, a little less at WalMart. Fiocchi 9mm +P JHP costs about $15-20 a box also. Plinking ammo is cheaper for 9mm, but with a cartridge cost for 9mm high quality ammo around 50-60 cents and .45acp FMJ costing around 40 cents a cartridge, you can evenly evaluate what "bang you get for your buck." The cost evaluation is a little bit more for 9mm, but you also get the added benefit of greater testing and oversight on cartridge tolerances, primer quality, bullet seating, etc. Less likely to get a misfire, which is a huge plus for the 9mm (again, talking dollar for dollar).
165gr .45acp +P JHP Corbons are EXPENSIVE, around a buck a cartridge. But, they do more damage than anything I've ever fired out of an auto at a cinder block, watermelon, water jug...
PMC or Winchester .45acp FMJ costs about $15 a box in a gun shop, a little less at WalMart. Fiocchi 9mm +P JHP costs about $15-20 a box also. Plinking ammo is cheaper for 9mm, but with a cartridge cost for 9mm high quality ammo around 50-60 cents and .45acp FMJ costing around 40 cents a cartridge, you can evenly evaluate what "bang you get for your buck." The cost evaluation is a little bit more for 9mm, but you also get the added benefit of greater testing and oversight on cartridge tolerances, primer quality, bullet seating, etc. Less likely to get a misfire, which is a huge plus for the 9mm (again, talking dollar for dollar).
165gr .45acp +P JHP Corbons are EXPENSIVE, around a buck a cartridge. But, they do more damage than anything I've ever fired out of an auto at a cinder block, watermelon, water jug...
CobrayCommando
Moderator
Ok, well I think your wrong, and thats a foolish assumption. Which is going to kill someone faster, an icepick to the heart or a .45 to the heart? People have even survived icepicks to the heart.
Note that I am not calling the 9mm an icepick, simply saying that to assume a hole in the heart is a hole in the heart is rather foolish.
Now, I would say that if both don't strike the heart, kidneys or very large arteries near the heart, and assuming the person doesn't collapse physchologically, then the 9mm JHP would stop the person quicker, anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 days. 30 seconds if it struck the lungs, 3 days if the fellow was gutshot and didn't get medical attention.
Assuming ideal conditions, then I would definately say that good quality 9mm JHP outperforms .45 ball...
And....
PS if the person was extremely large or was wearing very heavy winter type clothing, or combat gear (magazines, flashlights etc.) then give me .45 ball.
9mm JHP, good quality stuff, will handle 99.9 percent of civilian encounters.
Note that I am not calling the 9mm an icepick, simply saying that to assume a hole in the heart is a hole in the heart is rather foolish.
Now, I would say that if both don't strike the heart, kidneys or very large arteries near the heart, and assuming the person doesn't collapse physchologically, then the 9mm JHP would stop the person quicker, anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 days. 30 seconds if it struck the lungs, 3 days if the fellow was gutshot and didn't get medical attention.
Assuming ideal conditions, then I would definately say that good quality 9mm JHP outperforms .45 ball...
And....
PS if the person was extremely large or was wearing very heavy winter type clothing, or combat gear (magazines, flashlights etc.) then give me .45 ball.
9mm JHP, good quality stuff, will handle 99.9 percent of civilian encounters.
Hmmm
JHP beats Ball. .355 vs. .45 on entry and 0.65 versus .45 on exit of said organ. The permanent would channel is larger on the 9mm - of course the size is highly dependent on jacket construction, sectional density and what not. Essentially, a 147 grain 9 mm has the same sectional density as a 230 grain .45 ACP. If both are designed to open within 2" of gelatin, lose no mass and penetrate 14 inches (like Federal's HST) there should be little if any difference, especially when the .45 expands to 0.7 inches and the 9 mm expands to 0.6 inches. That means you have 0.05 inches of MARGIN for shot placement - a none issue.
Shoot what you can shoot more accurately and quickly and CHOOSE PROPER AMMUNITION. End of story.
JHP beats Ball. .355 vs. .45 on entry and 0.65 versus .45 on exit of said organ. The permanent would channel is larger on the 9mm - of course the size is highly dependent on jacket construction, sectional density and what not. Essentially, a 147 grain 9 mm has the same sectional density as a 230 grain .45 ACP. If both are designed to open within 2" of gelatin, lose no mass and penetrate 14 inches (like Federal's HST) there should be little if any difference, especially when the .45 expands to 0.7 inches and the 9 mm expands to 0.6 inches. That means you have 0.05 inches of MARGIN for shot placement - a none issue.
Shoot what you can shoot more accurately and quickly and CHOOSE PROPER AMMUNITION. End of story.
Ozzie: the Moros, in the Philippines. And it was the .38 Colt, not .38 Special. .38 Colt was anemic by modern standards...and 9mm (in current, weak, American factory loadings) usually has significantly higher muzzle energies than .38 Special anyway.
Now, you could argue that the .38 Special used to be loaded a good bit hotter than it is now, but so was the 9mm round—German World War II loadings (and a lot of modern European loadings) are about what we'd call +P here in the States.
***
On topic: I'll vote 9mm JHP. You have to consider that the entry profile of the bullets (jagged edges on the hollowpoint, hard round nose on the ball) will cause different sorts of damage—the 9mm hollow-point would tear up tissue and carve a larger permanent cavity than the .45 could generate just by pushing tissue out of the way. Especially if you're looking at a lung hit, you want a carved-out cavity for blood to flow into, not a small hole which stretches to bullet diameter and then closes back up behind it.
What I would really prefer would be a .40 JHP (most .45 doublestacks are kind of uncomfortable for me).
Now, you could argue that the .38 Special used to be loaded a good bit hotter than it is now, but so was the 9mm round—German World War II loadings (and a lot of modern European loadings) are about what we'd call +P here in the States.
***
On topic: I'll vote 9mm JHP. You have to consider that the entry profile of the bullets (jagged edges on the hollowpoint, hard round nose on the ball) will cause different sorts of damage—the 9mm hollow-point would tear up tissue and carve a larger permanent cavity than the .45 could generate just by pushing tissue out of the way. Especially if you're looking at a lung hit, you want a carved-out cavity for blood to flow into, not a small hole which stretches to bullet diameter and then closes back up behind it.
What I would really prefer would be a .40 JHP (most .45 doublestacks are kind of uncomfortable for me).
Harley Quinn
Moderator
stillito
Good post, I was about to tell ozzie the very thing but hey, you got there and I will agree on your whole thread.
Harley
Good post, I was about to tell ozzie the very thing but hey, you got there and I will agree on your whole thread.
Harley
Agree with Stiletto
As far as energy goes 9mm beats .38spl by a long mile;
A non +p .38 I is about 200ft-lb (about the same as .380) .38+p is usually up to 280ft-lb
Now 9mm target load (Win white box) is 360ft-lb and +p loads are ~400ft-lb…FWI the most powerful 9mm load is 500ft-lb not to shabby huh?
As far as energy goes 9mm beats .38spl by a long mile;
A non +p .38 I is about 200ft-lb (about the same as .380) .38+p is usually up to 280ft-lb
Now 9mm target load (Win white box) is 360ft-lb and +p loads are ~400ft-lb…FWI the most powerful 9mm load is 500ft-lb not to shabby huh?
There are too many variables to consider. Identical rounds placed at the same point will have drastically different effects depending on the person. Human targets do not make good ballistic comparisons at all. With that being said, I'd vote for the larger round and not worry about if the HP is expanding properly.
Considering the cheif complaint about the .223 round is it's lack of stopping power and considering that it transfers more energy than either I think It doesn't really matter.
I also think the comparison is somewhat lopsided. Why not compare a 45+pjhp load to the 9mm+pjhp load if you want to know the truth about the two calibers in readily available carry ammo?
I also think the comparison is somewhat lopsided. Why not compare a 45+pjhp load to the 9mm+pjhp load if you want to know the truth about the two calibers in readily available carry ammo?
.45ACP FMJ is not comparable to 9mm JHP
How is a FMJ load going to expand? I've shot 9mm FMJ through 20" tree trunks with not even a sign of deformation.
Most modern 9mm are expanding to at least .60. It also bothers me when people argue that hollow-points don't expand reliably as if they only expand 25% of the time. Back in 1989, which was still "old-school", in regards to bullet technology, bullets expanded 60-70% in actual human targets. You can only imagine that with the improved bullet designs of today that number would be significantly higher. Weight in itself has nothing to do with penetration. Cross-sectional density, caliber, velocity, and overall momentum must be figured in. A 185gr. 45ACP round penetrates no better than a 115gr. 9mm. A 230gr. 45ACP penetrates no better than a 147gr round. This is considering HPs. In FMJ, in general I've seen the 9mm outpenetrate the .45ACP through most media.
How is a FMJ load going to expand? I've shot 9mm FMJ through 20" tree trunks with not even a sign of deformation.
Most modern 9mm are expanding to at least .60. It also bothers me when people argue that hollow-points don't expand reliably as if they only expand 25% of the time. Back in 1989, which was still "old-school", in regards to bullet technology, bullets expanded 60-70% in actual human targets. You can only imagine that with the improved bullet designs of today that number would be significantly higher. Weight in itself has nothing to do with penetration. Cross-sectional density, caliber, velocity, and overall momentum must be figured in. A 185gr. 45ACP round penetrates no better than a 115gr. 9mm. A 230gr. 45ACP penetrates no better than a 147gr round. This is considering HPs. In FMJ, in general I've seen the 9mm outpenetrate the .45ACP through most media.
center mass?
Oh the interminable discussion and argument about .45acp vs. 9mm!
Once upon a time, I was called upon to review a life insurance claim. A truck driver had died. Did he die of an accident? Did he die of a medical condition? The question was important. If an accident, the benefits were paid. If not, then no benefits paid. Apparently, the man had had a heart attack. As he crashed, a cargo load of rods shifted, pentrated the truck cab - and him.
After reviewing the situation, I determined that the rods killed him because he would have lingered a few minutes after a heart attack.
How does that relate to the question posed - and which posed, day after day, year after year?
Center mass shots are ineffective in immediate stoppage, when compared to another approach. You shoot for the base of the throat. If you hit high, low, right or left, the person is out of commission. If a person is wearing body armor, he is out of commission. If a person is wearing layered clothes, he is out of commission. This is in contrast to shooting center mass.
If you shoot layered clothing with a hollow point, the round becomes an equivalent of an fmj when it strikes a person.
People can and will function when mortally wounded. This is less likely when the lights are shut down. How much pressure can you withstand if a person simply touches the base of your throat with a soft finger???
Let me tell you about "center mass" mentality. A foreign SF Lt. Col. I know complained that his people would not and could not shoot an exposed hand, an ankle, a shoulder. It was demonstrated that his people had been taught center mass shooting instead of cutting the target in half. When retrained, his people did well.
Other concepts that also need to be junked are: controlled pair, double tap, two to the body and one to the head, glock vs. .45 government, comparing guns that "never have to be cleaned". Seek out good instructors. Learn to shoot on the run, the walk, when rising up, when sitting down, covering 360 degrees, in low light, and with a variety of handguns. Then, 9mm vs. .45acp is truly unimportant.
Oh the interminable discussion and argument about .45acp vs. 9mm!
Once upon a time, I was called upon to review a life insurance claim. A truck driver had died. Did he die of an accident? Did he die of a medical condition? The question was important. If an accident, the benefits were paid. If not, then no benefits paid. Apparently, the man had had a heart attack. As he crashed, a cargo load of rods shifted, pentrated the truck cab - and him.
After reviewing the situation, I determined that the rods killed him because he would have lingered a few minutes after a heart attack.
How does that relate to the question posed - and which posed, day after day, year after year?
Center mass shots are ineffective in immediate stoppage, when compared to another approach. You shoot for the base of the throat. If you hit high, low, right or left, the person is out of commission. If a person is wearing body armor, he is out of commission. If a person is wearing layered clothes, he is out of commission. This is in contrast to shooting center mass.
If you shoot layered clothing with a hollow point, the round becomes an equivalent of an fmj when it strikes a person.
People can and will function when mortally wounded. This is less likely when the lights are shut down. How much pressure can you withstand if a person simply touches the base of your throat with a soft finger???
Let me tell you about "center mass" mentality. A foreign SF Lt. Col. I know complained that his people would not and could not shoot an exposed hand, an ankle, a shoulder. It was demonstrated that his people had been taught center mass shooting instead of cutting the target in half. When retrained, his people did well.
Other concepts that also need to be junked are: controlled pair, double tap, two to the body and one to the head, glock vs. .45 government, comparing guns that "never have to be cleaned". Seek out good instructors. Learn to shoot on the run, the walk, when rising up, when sitting down, covering 360 degrees, in low light, and with a variety of handguns. Then, 9mm vs. .45acp is truly unimportant.
- Status