Believer now---changing to buckshot

So tell me some spectacular dropped em right there with buckshot tales, I'm leanin away from it towards pure slug use!

I mean, if I ever get into even one gunbattle, I've already beat the odds and got handed the short end...at which point there is no such thing as over-penetration and a real concern for under-penetration!
 
.at which point there is no such thing as over-penetration and a real concern for under-penetration!
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Well, the FBI hired a bunch of really smart people and paid them a lot of money to test these things. They stated that 12-18 inches of ballistic gellatin penetration is ideal. That sounds like alot, at least it did to me at first, but remember that real bad guys have skin, solid organs, bones, maybe layers of denim, leather, and fat. So I would say more than 18 inches is over penetration and less than 12 is underpenetration.

I've yet to meet anyone smarter who can dissuade me from their advise. That may happen some day and I'm open to possibilities, but it hasn't happened yet.

A slug isn't a bad choice, especially if the slug is soft lead. Hardened slugs should be reserved for grizzlies and other large mammals. I don't prefer it, but it would reinforce the other old wives tale that you merely point the shotgun in the direction of the target and you're sure to hit it. This is decidedly false at home defense ranges where the pattern will be only a few inches.
 
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Chad: the big problem with LTL rounds is that at close range, such as a home defense incident, they are often fatal.

They have to be fired at a certain safe distance for the projectile to lose enough ballistic momentum to not cause severe damage to internal organs and possible death. And if you kill someone with a LTL device, you're going to most likely face a grilling by the prosecution. They will try to prove that you didn't have justification to shoot - otherwise you'd have used real ammunition - and that your actions caused an unjustified death.
 
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Birdshot will kill you, it happend in Lincoln Nebraska about 3 months ago. A guy and his new wife were "clearing the house" on a drill and he forgot that his shotgun was loaded from skeet shooting earlier that day and shot her across the kitchen. Hit her in the upper right chest, he is up for manslaughter.
That being said, I prefer buckshot for my shotguns.

Chad, my ultimate goal is to kill the person who is trying to do me harm. I recommend you leave the liberal state your in if you have to worry about hurting the person who is going to kill you.
 
I guess you guys disagree with this thread on when just about everyone says to call an ambulance to show "remorse". I am no a ballistics expert and the courts will not try to prove I am, I trust less lethal ammunition as just that, less lethal. As for your internet lawyers, I will just stick with the facts that I know for my locale. Thanks for the input guys.

As for moving, my roots are too strong here, I have 4 businesses in this state, packing up and moving is just not an option.
 
You call 911 and include that an ambulance is also required. Not for remorse as that is a sign of guilt. do it to show the compassion. I want the carcass off my floors as fast as possible to mitigate the damage to floor coverings as momma has to clean the mess up. :eek:
The only "remorse" I would have if I had to rightfully defend the home and family is I am down a few rounds of inventory.
To each his own. But I bet you will find that no LEO ever draws down on a BG with LTL loads in a solo firefight. They are always backed up with a full lethal round. If you don't break my ribs, a beanbag is going to get me real upset. I am not a big man just real determined to win at any cost...
Brent
 
Well, so how many inches of gel will buckshot penetrate. I've read the 12-18" of penetration and it sounds like a good standard. So where's buckshot fall out in that range? With the light 50 some grain pellets I think its dubious that they'd make it 12" (I could be wrong!). Add to that the myriad angles and stuff and buckshot doesnt look that good as a GP SD round, IMO.

I think that your assertion that slugs somehow reinforce the myth that all you have to do is point it the general direction of the BG is a misprint/typo, ya get one slug and better aim like a rifle.
 
Edward, individual pellet penetration is much less than a load of pellets creating a wound channel. The smaller birdshot peters out before a deep destructive wound channel is made.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958
This is an in depth (literally) look at various wound channels in gelatin. Please take note of the actual pocket of damage caused by hydraulic shock as well as the pellet damages...
Brent
 
chad:
The argument here is:
If you are in fear for your life or serious injuries you have the right to use lethal force.
If you are using less than lethal force you are not in fear for your life and are using 'maiming force' illegally. Even if the round works as intended you could face some serious legal quandaries. In most cases you can not break a robbers knee with a baseball bat if he is not a threat to your person, same with using a bean bag that is reasonably expected to do some pretty serious, but not lethal damage.
It is one of these really odd results of some serious lawyer-ball. My biggest concern with rubber buckshot is how much will it bounce if any of the pellets miss. My dwelling has plaster walls with wood floors. I have no idea how may times those rubber pellets would bounce in a room before stopping. Are they going to hit me? are they going to hit the BG in the face? Are they going to hit a guest? I won't even get into the possible collateral damage considering windows and tvs.

On the FBI tests:
They were looking at penetration necessary for shooting into cars, shooting at 30 yards, etc., not a guy across the room. The amount of penetration necessary for such things exceeds my need in HD.
 
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buck_rem_00_express_d.jpg

This one shows the devastation I seek in an HD round. Note the "pocket" of damage. I believe the threat would be stopped with that shot...
Brent
 
John:

Very good points, It makes perfect sence to me now. LTL rounds are coming out of my guns when I get home. First round will become 4 buck.

Thanks for the input.
 
That does look like a lot of destruction, and is up around the 12" mark.

But that was bare gel. If the perp is armored, bad news. A slug'd still take the wind out of an armored mans sails though!

Impressive...but...no sale! I'll keep me slugs!
 
You don't call an ambulance to show remorse. You call the ambulance because you aren't an on-duty emergency room physician in a fully-equipped ER. If the head is still on, and the heart is still in, doctors might be able to fix everything else.

Just from a legal standpoint: maybe he's dead, but maybe he's just in bad shape and won't actually die for another 15 to 45 minutes. In which case not bothering to call for an ambulance is depraved indifference.
 
On the FBI tests:
They were looking at penetration necessary for shooting into cars, shooting at 30 yards, etc., not a guy across the room. The amount of penetration necessary for such things exceeds my need in HD.
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Actually, those were separate tests.

The 12" is pretty standard. I like to stay close to the minimum, with all my loads for home. Even a small guy wearing a leather jacket may test the 12" minimum, especially if he happens to be bladed off and you are shooting through the arm also. (That was one of the scenarios in the Miami shootout, BTW.) However, I think 12" penetration is a pretty fair standard for home use. That is basically a little less penetration than #4 Buckshot. I'd probably consider BB or larger birdshot for across the room use except that all those loads these days tend to be magnums and steel shot.

Most people wouldn't consider a pistol that has less than 12" of penetration. That's less than a .25 ACP. I won't either.
 
You may only get one shot off--make it count! Buckshot or slugs
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It takes under one second to chamber the next round.
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Have you ever touched off a 12 gauge in a small room in low light?
I got a racoon in an old chicken coop in the back of my uncles property when I was a kid, and the flash blinded me for a minute plus I couldn't hear right for 2 days. just a thought
 
I'll bet if you missed, the raccoon would be blind and deaf also, much like a BG. We'd both be in the same boat.
 
I'll bet if you missed, the raccoon would be blind and deaf also, much like a BG. We'd both be in the same boat
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I didn't miss but boy did I wish I would have had a misfire!:eek:
My uncle who put me up to the task thought that is was real funny though.
oh well you live you learn, thats why I use a sling shot for HD now!;)
 
ballistic gel is designed to model human flesh, correct? That is always what I have been led to believe. Holding a ruler up to my torso(which draws some stares from around the office), I can see that my thicker than normal torso is less than one foot thick. Yes there are bones, but when it starts bouncing off the bones I feel the damage will be sufficient and the wound cavity will start to really expand.

I have buck shot on hand, I am not sure for what purpose. Inside a home where the greatest length in less than 10 yards my 5 shot auto loader with left over pheasant loads is more than over kill.

Left over pheasant loads also sounds pretty good in the legal department.
 
John, Ballistic gelatin is not a model for human flesh. It is a consistent media that kind of resembles the physical makeup of soft tissue. Muscle varies from human to human and bone is another situation. Blood filled mass of the torso compared to a thigh etc....
The gelatin is just a media. It seems they expect a full 1/3rd more penetration in gelatin to compare to decent human tissue penetration.
I am old school and if anyone wants a real world media I will help aquire 150 pound hog carcasses... Shoot 'em where you want and come up with real world results...
Brent
 
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