When the NWO-US-UN Conglomerate get ready to put the screws on the American people officially, Swat teams will be the least of the peoples worries overall. It could very likely be terror tactics as used by the Nato aggressors in Kosovo. I believe the Federales will be using weapons of mass destruction against pockets of patriots and in the urban areas will use the city gangs to keep order. The Big ''Gansta" will use the little 'gansta to enforce Federal mandates. I think Swat teams will be basically passe when the BIG balloon of martial law goes up. The police will be militarized troops in most cases. Ravings of a madman? Time will tell.But why do I smell martial law in the wind?
Beating the SWAT team, Your suggestions?
- Thread starter NexusLexus
- Start date
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Nexus, Never ever do anything to get you self into a situation like that. If they come to you by mistake you might get lucky if you are comatose. If you are awake and they only send in scouts they never do this and you repel boarders you can bet SWHTF. At 0300 hrs
you are guilty and you are armed and dangerous! Sucks doesn't it?
IMHO Hank
you are guilty and you are armed and dangerous! Sucks doesn't it?
IMHO Hank
Anthony,
You got it!
Don't be a target- it's always my favorite strategy. If you have to hit 'em, let 'em think they've won- unless you need them to know they lost.
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John Shirley
www.e-budo.com
You got it!
Don't be a target- it's always my favorite strategy. If you have to hit 'em, let 'em think they've won- unless you need them to know they lost.------------------
John Shirley
www.e-budo.com
John Hunter
New member
How to beat a SWAT team? Just call for a strike by your air support! What you don't have tactical air support? Well in that case I go along with Rich, you best be somewhere else when they show up. <G>
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John - NRA - Lifer
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John - NRA - Lifer
Ground Level
New member
Actually there is a way to beat them, it's based on the simple philosophy that sane people don't want to die, and SWAT's basic rule of advantage is through surprise. You have to know they are there before they position for entry.
What you do is pick up the telephone and dial 911. You tell the dispatcher your address and that there is a bunch of people dressed in black clothing and facemasks carrying automatic weapons and a battering ram. You tell the dispatcher that it is either a home invasion robbery, or police impersonators, or if it is the Police then they have the wrong house. It is now on tape on the record, and anything that happens next should be fully documented.
If the intruders are Federal or Military, then the local PD may not know about their operation and should come with sirens wailing. If the intruders are in contact with the local PD, you should be immediately put in telephone contact with the control person in charge outside. They do not, I repeat, they do not want to force entry when the occupants are waiting and know they are coming.
If they believe they have the right address, then you advise them you are coming out after you secure your dog. Then you very slowly open the door and exit hands first and high. It's all up to the lawyers after that. Don't say nothing else beyond what you said to the dispatcher. And you better not have said anything about shooting anyone who comes through the door.
Nuff said. It would be nice if you had a recent video tape of your home and inventory of contents prior to their entry for later court battles. Others may not agree with me, so be it. Sun Tzu (sp?) and other books have been written on how to deal with a stronger opponent or better equiped opponent. When your enemy has the advantage, you don't need a level playing field to get them off balance.
Play safe, but most of all play smart.
Awareness can be as natural as breathing. Make it so.
What you do is pick up the telephone and dial 911. You tell the dispatcher your address and that there is a bunch of people dressed in black clothing and facemasks carrying automatic weapons and a battering ram. You tell the dispatcher that it is either a home invasion robbery, or police impersonators, or if it is the Police then they have the wrong house. It is now on tape on the record, and anything that happens next should be fully documented.
If the intruders are Federal or Military, then the local PD may not know about their operation and should come with sirens wailing. If the intruders are in contact with the local PD, you should be immediately put in telephone contact with the control person in charge outside. They do not, I repeat, they do not want to force entry when the occupants are waiting and know they are coming.
If they believe they have the right address, then you advise them you are coming out after you secure your dog. Then you very slowly open the door and exit hands first and high. It's all up to the lawyers after that. Don't say nothing else beyond what you said to the dispatcher. And you better not have said anything about shooting anyone who comes through the door.
Nuff said. It would be nice if you had a recent video tape of your home and inventory of contents prior to their entry for later court battles. Others may not agree with me, so be it. Sun Tzu (sp?) and other books have been written on how to deal with a stronger opponent or better equiped opponent. When your enemy has the advantage, you don't need a level playing field to get them off balance.
Play safe, but most of all play smart.
Awareness can be as natural as breathing. Make it so.
In my case I'd be dead meat because of my location -rowhouse near a major city. Now if you live out in the suburbs and have a little land then I recommend doing what they did in a Tom Sellack movie with Bess Armstrong. I can't remember the title but Tom was a Pilot and I think Bess was also. Anyway, there is this scene where one faction is putting a siege on a strong hold, artillery and everything. The head cheese makes it look like he is running out of steam and the seiging forces start running across the field towards the stronghold. All of the sudden the Head guy in the stronghold start hitting detonation plungers and the field where the opposing forces are running across turns into crater killing most, really cool. So if you have some land and plant charges all through it, act like your weakening and when the poor bastards come pussy footing across let'em have it. But you still better have an escape route. Speaking of which does anyone know the biggest diameter you can get PVC in?
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"Solidarity is the Key"
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"Solidarity is the Key"
Jessica Wellman
New member
Good answer Ground Level
Know the enemy, know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril.
SUN-TZU (4th cent. B.C.), "Offensive Strategy" (31), The Art of War, tr. Samuel B. Griffith, 1963
Know the enemy, know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril.
SUN-TZU (4th cent. B.C.), "Offensive Strategy" (31), The Art of War, tr. Samuel B. Griffith, 1963
I'm especially with Rich on this one. Don't be there.
But more importantly, don't be the ones they storm in on.
MOST of the guys that were the targets of these wildly-publicized SWAT-assaults were actually guilty of something. [NO FLAMES, PLEASE!!! I'm on your side!!!] Did the guys you're about to defend to me (and I know you're about to! ) deserve to have guns pointed at them and their families, and be arrested at 3:00 am and have thier lives ruined? Usually not, if you're thinking of the cases I'm thinking about.
But Randy Weaver was actively engaged in criminal activity. (yes, probably as a result of entrapment, but that's another issue, and besides the fact.) The Davidians were engaged in some illegal stuff, no matter how feather-legged. And on and on. At risk of sounding like the Man, here... If you don't want that "knock" at your door, don't invite it with stupid criminal activity, no matter how low-profile.
Provide for getaway, but have your attorney's number in your wallet (better to memorize it). Remember that fleeing is against the law, and can be used against you, too. The funny thing is, most of the people that survived those standoffs are free today. Live to fight another day!
Use the revolving door against them!! Get booked in, walk right out.
Fight legally, don't be a criminal, and don't be there if you are one, in their eyes.
I don't shoot at police officers. I shoot at criminals. If an officer is actually committing a crime against me that is so bad I cannot for another second endure it nor its danger, he may well be relassified, but, in the long run, you lose. Right or wrong, you shoot a cop, you're wrong.
We're the good guys.
Don't be the bad guy.
I'm not kidding.
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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?
But more importantly, don't be the ones they storm in on.
MOST of the guys that were the targets of these wildly-publicized SWAT-assaults were actually guilty of something. [NO FLAMES, PLEASE!!! I'm on your side!!!] Did the guys you're about to defend to me (and I know you're about to!
) deserve to have guns pointed at them and their families, and be arrested at 3:00 am and have thier lives ruined? Usually not, if you're thinking of the cases I'm thinking about. But Randy Weaver was actively engaged in criminal activity. (yes, probably as a result of entrapment, but that's another issue, and besides the fact.) The Davidians were engaged in some illegal stuff, no matter how feather-legged. And on and on. At risk of sounding like the Man, here... If you don't want that "knock" at your door, don't invite it with stupid criminal activity, no matter how low-profile.
Provide for getaway, but have your attorney's number in your wallet (better to memorize it). Remember that fleeing is against the law, and can be used against you, too. The funny thing is, most of the people that survived those standoffs are free today. Live to fight another day!
Use the revolving door against them!! Get booked in, walk right out.
Fight legally, don't be a criminal, and don't be there if you are one, in their eyes.
I don't shoot at police officers. I shoot at criminals. If an officer is actually committing a crime against me that is so bad I cannot for another second endure it nor its danger, he may well be relassified, but, in the long run, you lose. Right or wrong, you shoot a cop, you're wrong.
We're the good guys.
Don't be the bad guy.
I'm not kidding.
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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?
Jeff Thomas
New member
Some interesting discussion, and also some of the more bizarre stuff I've seen on TFL. 
Long Path, you're right in many ways. But, what increasingly concerns many of us is the point you seem to gloss over. Our society has evolved in such a way that I believe anyone should realize they might someday be accused of 'criminal activity'. As you point out, sometimes these cases are pretty thin. Perhaps razor thin. And, with the plethora of laws currently available to governments at local, state and federal levels, the danger of selective prosecution is greater than ever.
The more local things get, usually the more reasonable the LEO's. But, I think it is naive for anyone to feel it could never happen to them. We know a very sharp, experienced and successful criminal defense attorney that can tell honest tales that make your hairs stand on end. Long Path, it could even happen to you.
For my money, if it ever happens I suppose I'll dial 911 and then my attorney. Our local LEO's certainly seem to be very decent and honest guys. OTOH, if the climate becomes more like Germany in 1941, then perhaps I'll change my perspective. As in, from another venue.
Long Path, you're right in many ways. But, what increasingly concerns many of us is the point you seem to gloss over. Our society has evolved in such a way that I believe anyone should realize they might someday be accused of 'criminal activity'. As you point out, sometimes these cases are pretty thin. Perhaps razor thin. And, with the plethora of laws currently available to governments at local, state and federal levels, the danger of selective prosecution is greater than ever.
The more local things get, usually the more reasonable the LEO's. But, I think it is naive for anyone to feel it could never happen to them. We know a very sharp, experienced and successful criminal defense attorney that can tell honest tales that make your hairs stand on end. Long Path, it could even happen to you.
For my money, if it ever happens I suppose I'll dial 911 and then my attorney. Our local LEO's certainly seem to be very decent and honest guys. OTOH, if the climate becomes more like Germany in 1941, then perhaps I'll change my perspective. As in, from another venue.
Jeff-- You're right on target. So we vote, we campain, and we write our legislators. We make our voices heard.
We DO NOT, however, pull stupid, illegal stunts and then shoot at the people who are coming after us, and then expect not to be demonized.
If you're shooting back at your government, you've already lost.
L.P.
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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?
We DO NOT, however, pull stupid, illegal stunts and then shoot at the people who are coming after us, and then expect not to be demonized.
If you're shooting back at your government, you've already lost.
L.P.
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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?
LongPath,
In order to start the Ruby Ridge massacre, the Feds shot a boy's dog while the pair were out walking on their own property. That's more than criminal...it's despicable!
That's more disgusting than being a white separatist who non-violently removes himself from the proximity of those with whom he disapproves - but he can't be left alone - can he? He has to be set up for a "crime" - a shorter than usual shotgun... (When did "Shall not be infringed" become "Shall not be shortened"?) It was a fundraiser by the FBI.
The mind police in Washington apparently decided that having a Black Caucus, Women's Caucus, Gay Caucus, whatever... is fine, but an isolated white loner raising his family is a danger to society.
Especially if there was an opportunity to create divisism and raise fund for more feds.
Where was the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals when the dog was shot?
Anyone shooting a kid's dog during their romp through their own woods DESERVES to be shot back at.
In order to start the Ruby Ridge massacre, the Feds shot a boy's dog while the pair were out walking on their own property. That's more than criminal...it's despicable!
That's more disgusting than being a white separatist who non-violently removes himself from the proximity of those with whom he disapproves - but he can't be left alone - can he? He has to be set up for a "crime" - a shorter than usual shotgun... (When did "Shall not be infringed" become "Shall not be shortened"?) It was a fundraiser by the FBI.
The mind police in Washington apparently decided that having a Black Caucus, Women's Caucus, Gay Caucus, whatever... is fine, but an isolated white loner raising his family is a danger to society.
Especially if there was an opportunity to create divisism and raise fund for more feds.
Where was the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals when the dog was shot?
Anyone shooting a kid's dog during their romp through their own woods DESERVES to be shot back at.
shortcut:
Touche'.
But NexusLexus was asking for tips on BEATING a raid. My best tip (and the best I've seen yet) is: don't let yourself become the target for one. Without regard to the circumstances, most of the guys we can offhand think of who got raided did something to raise some eyebrows and get a judge to sign a warrant, illegal or not.
The easiest raid to beat is the one you avoid. Don't be a patsy.
Touche'.
But NexusLexus was asking for tips on BEATING a raid. My best tip (and the best I've seen yet) is: don't let yourself become the target for one. Without regard to the circumstances, most of the guys we can offhand think of who got raided did something to raise some eyebrows and get a judge to sign a warrant, illegal or not.
The easiest raid to beat is the one you avoid. Don't be a patsy.
"the tv is hardwired for Barney and friends and the audio system has the best of the Carpenters on infinite loop"
dz, isn't there something in the Geneva Convention 'bout the unfair & inhumane treatment of prisoners ?
I say let 'em sit through the whole series of Monica tapes !
Also reading literature must be provided, Mein Kampf might be a good choice ?
Refreshments could be provided via a urine/water purification system....
Background music should be the "on hold" MUSAK that all Govt. Departments use to torture unsuspecting callers with !
Well they declared war 1st didn't they !?
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"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
dz, isn't there something in the Geneva Convention 'bout the unfair & inhumane treatment of prisoners ?
I say let 'em sit through the whole series of Monica tapes !
Also reading literature must be provided, Mein Kampf might be a good choice ?
Refreshments could be provided via a urine/water purification system....
Background music should be the "on hold" MUSAK that all Govt. Departments use to torture unsuspecting callers with !
Well they declared war 1st didn't they !?
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"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
Hey, y'all are coming up with some great suggestions, but they are pretty elaborate.
How about the simplistic?
Leave a box of fresh donuts (with sprinklies) and a pot of fresh hot coffee on a table placed just far away enough from the front door that it does not fall over when they kick in your door. This (combined with a clever disguise, like a Dunkin Donuts uniform) should stall them long enough to make your get away
[This message has been edited by Phillip (edited August 18, 1999).]
How about the simplistic?
Leave a box of fresh donuts (with sprinklies) and a pot of fresh hot coffee on a table placed just far away enough from the front door that it does not fall over when they kick in your door. This (combined with a clever disguise, like a Dunkin Donuts uniform) should stall them long enough to make your get away
[This message has been edited by Phillip (edited August 18, 1999).]
Rob Pincus
New member
Very interesting thread.
I love the fish idea.
I disagree very strongly that the defense has a disadvantage. I think that if you were really "dug-in" and armed/supplied you could hold off a small (6-10) group of well-armed and trained attackers. Afterall, there is a reason that well trained armies do not plan an attack unless they outnumber their enemy significantly... [and] they try for as much surprise and mobility as they can get. Taking a static defensive position by force is not an easy prospect.
If you are ever really the target of such a group, chances are you would know why they were there and have had ample chance to avoid their arrival. If you are an illegal arms dealer or are running a crack house, consider this your warning that they may well show up one day.
IF, the attack was not from an LEA, but just some group of "SWAT-like" attackers, your best bet, IMHO would be to hole in a reinforced/armored room/closet and shoot everything that comes your way, quickly. With the right gear and the right setting I think someone could hold out pretty well, perhaps even exhuasting the enemy's resources and/or personnel.
or, you could use the FFD (frozen fish defense).
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-Essayons
I love the fish idea.
I disagree very strongly that the defense has a disadvantage. I think that if you were really "dug-in" and armed/supplied you could hold off a small (6-10) group of well-armed and trained attackers. Afterall, there is a reason that well trained armies do not plan an attack unless they outnumber their enemy significantly... [and] they try for as much surprise and mobility as they can get. Taking a static defensive position by force is not an easy prospect.
If you are ever really the target of such a group, chances are you would know why they were there and have had ample chance to avoid their arrival. If you are an illegal arms dealer or are running a crack house, consider this your warning that they may well show up one day
.IF, the attack was not from an LEA, but just some group of "SWAT-like" attackers, your best bet, IMHO would be to hole in a reinforced/armored room/closet and shoot everything that comes your way, quickly. With the right gear and the right setting I think someone could hold out pretty well, perhaps even exhuasting the enemy's resources and/or personnel.
or, you could use the FFD (frozen fish defense).
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-Essayons
boobytraps and underground escape (much forsight needed)
b*lls to wall assault and escape (its worked against 'regular' cops, still need terrain advantages and perhaps prior contingency plans [vehicle] not to mention firepower such as explosives and hi-cap SAs or As would be quite helpful)
give up
b*lls to wall assault and escape (its worked against 'regular' cops, still need terrain advantages and perhaps prior contingency plans [vehicle] not to mention firepower such as explosives and hi-cap SAs or As would be quite helpful)
give up
NexusLexus, The interesting part of your question was if it had ever been done. No takers on the real life side. I've done it plenty of times in "Rainbow Six". In my own real life, if it happens it will be a mistake, but I'll pay for it. If it isn't, I'll already be gone when they get there.
Are you wealthy? Did you plan this?
If not you lose. If you have no contingency, you are dog food, and only a moron (or fanatic) would get himself into this scenario.
Anyone who doesn't think ahead deserves what they get, and thankfully they won't breed again.
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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
If not you lose. If you have no contingency, you are dog food, and only a moron (or fanatic) would get himself into this scenario.
Anyone who doesn't think ahead deserves what they get, and thankfully they won't breed again.
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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
Mike Spight
New member
Rob:
I was assuming from his question a scenario involving him (or a Joe Sixpack) in a normal residence like most of us reside in. If a person with little or no training tries to defend against "...6 to 10..." trained SWAT personnel, they are gonna lose. Besides, the attacker already has a favorable combat ratio when he outnumbers a defender by 6 to 1, remember? Now if you want to fortify the house, give the defender lots of weapons and ammo, food, H2O, etc along with exceptional levels of skill at arms and fitness, and a support network within his community, then things might be different...IF AND ONLY IF he has someone in there with him (just as skilled) so they can get some sleep.
Just MHO.
Mike
I was assuming from his question a scenario involving him (or a Joe Sixpack) in a normal residence like most of us reside in. If a person with little or no training tries to defend against "...6 to 10..." trained SWAT personnel, they are gonna lose. Besides, the attacker already has a favorable combat ratio when he outnumbers a defender by 6 to 1, remember? Now if you want to fortify the house, give the defender lots of weapons and ammo, food, H2O, etc along with exceptional levels of skill at arms and fitness, and a support network within his community, then things might be different...IF AND ONLY IF he has someone in there with him (just as skilled) so they can get some sleep.
Just MHO.
Mike
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