Autos can be "iffy"

I don't believe I've ever owned an auto that was 100%, but I've had a couple of failures with revolvers too.

I'm a revolver man, but I've been really looking over the SIG 229 lately (.40 S&W).
 
Take the same DA wheelgun and place it in the trenches of Europe in WWI and you find that in the mud and grit of that war and others, the wheelgun is at a distinct disadvantage to the semi. The DA revolver malfunctioned more than the Luger, the Tokarov, the 1911, the Radom Vis, the BHP, the P38, etc. this is what occurred. Sure revolvers were used but they also proved less rugged than semis.

Do you have any documentation of that because it is not consistent with anything I've read about weapons of the Great War over the years. During WWI, revolvers were still pretty highly thought of and many such as the S&W and Colt M1917's and Webley Mk. V and Mk. VI were liked very well by the troops. By comparison, many of the early semi-autos, the P-08 Luger in particular, had reputations for being finicky about mud and grit.

Also, it is often forgotten that during WWI revolvers were still just about as popular as semi-autos were. During WWI, the Allies with the exception of the U.S. were still using revolvers as their standard sidearm (British, Australian, and Canadian Webleys, French M1892 Lebels, Russian M1895 Nagants, and Italian Bodeos) while the Central Powers were more accepting of semi-autos (German Lugers and C-96 Mausers and Austrian Steyr-Hahn M1912's).
 
I've always heard that the reliability of the Webleys was highly regarded.

Does the poster mean WWII? Most of the guns he mentions were not around until then.



Boberama
 
I've always heard that the reliability of the Webleys was highly regarded.

Does the poster mean WWII? Most of the guns he mentions were not around until then.

Possibly. However, it is worth mentioning that the British continued to use Webley and Enfield revolvers (the Enfield revolvers were so similar to the Webleys that the British Gov't was sued by Webley over the design) through WWII into the 1960's. Also, while the 1911 was the standard U.S. sidearm, many thousands of S&W Victory Models (the military version of the .38 M&P revolver) were used. The Russians continued to use the M1895 Nagant revolver in large numbers through WWII even though it had been officially replaced by the TT-33 and the Japanese were still using a lot of Nambu Type 26 revolvers during WWII. Actually, the U.S. was probably the last country to move completely away from revolovers as the S&W M15 Combat Masterpiece was the official sidearm of the USAF until 1985 when it was replaced by the Beretta M9.
 
Auto's are resistant to abuse whereas revolvers are resistant to neglect. They both fail when you reverse that trend. Autos these days are about as reliable as they've ever been, especially with hollowpoints. I'd trust one easily, depending on who made it.
 
Another trip to the range with an auto and two revolvers.

It is just food for thought.

Today, I brought some new handloads to the range for the Para GI Expert 1911. I was smart enough this time to only load 16 rounds of each of two loads. That's four magazines' worth, two for each load to test reliability. For those who are interested:

Both loads used: mixed brass, WLP primers, 5.8 gr. of HP38 powder. Both were crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp die after bullet seating.

Load 1 was 200 gr. plated semi wadcutters. Of the first 5 rounds, it jammed 4 times. I didn't finish this mag, just put the rest of the ammo back. I'll shoot it through my S&W 625 later with no concern. (along with the rest of the weak loads from last time, hehehe)

Load 2 was 200 gr. plated flat point bullets, which were 100% reliable this time. Other than the powder charge, they were the same as last time. I weighed the charge I used last time, and it was 4.8 gr. (should have been 5.2 by the book...) That is on the low end of book value. So yeah, ammo issue, and yeah, my fault.

It is worth noting here that I don't use handloads for self defense, and if I did, I would do some pretty thorough testing first.

Then, it was time to get out the home defense gun for some practice. It is a Ruger SP-101, 357 Magnum, 3". Crimson Trace laser grips on it. I tuned the action with instructions from a retired gunsmith. (polished certain internals, installed reduced power springs)

I fired 120 rounds of 38 Special handloads in 357 Magnum cases. The loads were as follows: 105 gr. hard cast "Rattler" flat point bullets from Meister bullets. Charges ranged from 3.8 gr. to 5.8 gr. Both magnum and standard primers were used.

To dial in my CTC grip to my defense load, I shot 15 rounds of it. Winchester 38+P 125 gr. semi jacketed hollow point.

I also fired 10 rounds of old fashioned Remington 158 gr. lead round nose factory ammo.

The gun had only a few breaks of not more than 15 seconds, so it was very hot at some points. It is dirty now, and so fouled up in places that the cylinder was getting tough to close toward the end. (no doubt mostly caused by firing cast bullets; the lube burns and fouls everything up pretty quickly; they're much smokier than jacketed or plated bullet loads)

Some of the light loads were inconsistent. I think it had to do with light powder charges in a large case.

I'm not sure how the 1911 would have fared if it went 145 rounds of mostly cast bullets, but it might be losing slide velocity at that point.

It would also be fair to acknowledge the fact that GI spec. 1911s are pretty famous for not feeding semi wadcutter bullets without some work done on them first. Next time I order bullets, I'll "bite the bullet" and get some round nose profile hollow points to see which, if any, it will feed properly without modding the gun.

Also to be fair, I will have to admit that, even with the laser sight, the 1911 was easier to shoot quickly than the SP-101. The DA pull just adds some guesswork. The sight cannot be set right for SA and fast DA.

I'm too tired now to clean the guns, so I rotated my Hi-Power in for home defense duty in the meantime. I feel that with the SP-101 being super-dirty, the Hi-Power is the more reliable gun. I think I would prefer the 625, but I don't have any defense type ammo handy for it at the moment.

This has been a long and rambling post, but there was a point I'd like to reiterate: Autos certainly have their strengths, and I'm the first to admit it. They're easier to shoot accurately and quickly at the same time.

Oh, the other revolver was my late great uncle's H&R "22 Special". Sadly, this gun needs work and is a Jam-O-Matic now, even with MiniMag. One of the pawls on the cylinder is not quite right and one of the 9 chambers has a bit more rotational play than I feel it should. On the other hand, I thought it had a weak mainspring, but it seems more likely now I had dud bulk ammo before.
 
I used to load 45acp with a Lee auto disk.

The problem is, at least for the HP38 I was using, it that i had no versatility. That lead me to have the same kind of problems you are experiencing.

I would look at the Hodgedon data, and then at the lee conversion table... and only two of the charge volumes were even on Hodgedons scale for 200gr bullets (5.2 - 5.9gr). The first charge, .49cu = 5.3gr, the second charge, .53cu = 5.7gr, and the third charge, .57cu - 6.2gr. So only two of them are even within acceptable charge ranges, and one of those is a minimum.

My Glock 30 would not cycle the light loads at all, and my Springer 1911 had occasional issues with them as well.

I eventually acquired a S&W 4506 which can handle much higher pressures than a 45 will produce, so I moved up to the next charge size (.57cu), which threw a consistent 6.2gr charge. that's 3/10'th of a grain over 'max'. That load cycled well, and never gave me any problems. I wouldn't recommend it in most other firearms though.

I love the convenience of the AutoDisk, and i have found it to be consistent.... but It can really be a pain in the butt sometimes.
 
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The DA revolver malfunctioned more than the Luger, the Tokarov, the 1911, the Radom Vis, the BHP, the P38, etc. this is what occurred. Sure revolvers were used but they also proved less rugged than semis.

From Webley;
Do you have any documentation of that because it is not consistent with anything I've read about weapons of the Great War over the years. During WWI, revolvers were still pretty highly thought of and many such as the S&W and Colt M1917's and Webley Mk. V and Mk. VI were liked very well by the troops. By comparison, many of the early semi-autos, the P-08 Luger in particular, had reputations for being finicky about mud and grit.

When I said above that the da revolver malfunctioned more than the pistols I mentioned, I went too far and was wrong...they malfunctioned about as much.

When it comes to revolvers of the period of the first World War we tend to remember and speak of the best of the breed, the Webley (likely the most rugged and dependable) the Colts and Smith and Wesson's. But there were many others there as well, from France, Belgium, Russia, Montenegro, Spain that did not make the cut. They broke too often and were too delicate. The cartridges were underpowered, dirt fouled them too easily, etc. Many of these proved more delicate than the Luger. The latter survived them as a service weapon by years.

In his book "The Handgun", Geoffrey Boothroyd points out page 320 (Crown edition) how even one of the great revolvers of the last century the Smith and Wesson "Triple Lock" ran into problems...

"In the .455 Mark II Hand Ejector the third lock and the casing round the ejector rod were discarded. Experience in the appalling conditions of the First World War had shown, on the Triple Lock models supplied to the British Government, that the ejector rod casing caused difficulty in closing the cylinder when it became choked with mud."

Elsewhere Boothroyd speaks of the ruggedness of the Colt New Service in the the War and elsewhere and compares it favorable to Smith and Wessons M1917 revolvers for reliability in brutal conditions. This largely due to the beefier build of the Colt and the cylinder lock up of the S&W which relied on it's ejector rod properly fitting into the forward barrel underlug. If grit got in the way or the rod backed out the revolver was tied up. The New Service was widely used by commonwealth countries for decades, a favorite of the Canadian Mounties for example.

As I and others said here before, revolvers continued to be used by various armies for decades in the last century and sometimes even now. The dominance of the semi in military service was a process that began in the late 1890s and continued and accelerated though. When the U.S. chose the 1911 it was as it's primary combat sidearm it continued to use wheelguns. When not enough 1911s could be produced revolvers were called on to fill the gap in two major wars and supplied a few other countries as well.

My point is not that the semi rules and wheelguns drool. Nope it's just that the question of which is more reliable has been settled by history. The 1911 carried into war in 1916 was the equal or better than many revolvers in the same war when it came to reliability. It most certainly was not worse. The same is true of the Luger. A process began then and improved, through the BHP, Makarov, etc. to the Glock and many offerings of today. In general today most quality semis are the equal or better than quality wheelguns in terms of reliability. They don't suit everyone and for some one or another is a better choice.

tipoc
 
My real life experiences:
Ruger Security Six .357, new in box, would hang up in double action.
Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt, new in box, wouldn't turn the extra ACP cylinder.
CZ75 9mm, 1000 rounds + and never a hiccup
CZ75 Compact 9mm, 700+ rounds and never a hiccup
S&W 1006 10mm, 600+ rounds and never a hiccup
Sig P238 .380, 400+ rounds and amazingly never a hiccup.....
All of these autos will feed anything I feed it, and I do keep them clean.
The only auto that gave me problems was a POS AMT 1911 that I did a ton of work on and now feeds empty cases without jamming. Still a POS.
Buy quality and feed it well, keep it clean.
 
MrTrooper - Regarding the Auto Disk, this is exactly what I ran into. I wound up going with the 6.2 gr. load, even though it was listed as over max. I weighed a few charges first, and found they were only actually 5.8 gr., which was just under the max. of 5.9 gr. That load does have enough power, and I'm going to stick with it.

I'm thinking of giving Unique another go, as it can also be used for light magnum loads in my 44 and 357 revolvers. I remember it being dirty, but I was only shooting cast bullets back then, so I don't know for sure if it was the powder or the bullet lube that was dirty.

What are you using as your versatile powder nowadays? The reason I bought HP38 was because of its versatility. But if there's something equally as versatile, reasonably clean, and reasonably efficient, I'm all for it. Locally, I can only get Alliant, Hodgdon, IMR, and Winchester powders. I found Bullseye to be very accurate, but not as versatile as HP38.

********

tipoc - Good write-up. But remember that reliability is only part of the equation for the military choosing a sidearm. Simplicity of construction and take-down probably factors in highly, and a 1911 is loads easier to field strip and properly clean than a S&W revolver. I bet the parts are more interchangeable too; with less hand-fitting needed for a combat spec. version. Firepower is another issue. 7 > 6, and faster reloading was probably also a factor.

But I agree that autos can be more reliable when they're muddy. More of the lockwork is enclosed.

Again though, I have to remind you that I'm not talking about military use. Assuming they're reasonably clean, they are just less prone to stoppage.

**********

Smilin' Jack - You either have a lot of experience you're not relating, or you have extraordinarily bad luck with revolvers. I've never heard of Ruger revolvers not working correctly out of the box, and you've had TWO of them. I'm not doubting your word, just speculating that they were the exception and not the rule. I do doubt the 'without a hiccup' experience though. I've never had an auto that didn't have a hiccup, whether it was caused by break-in, bad ammo, bad technique, etc. Those are hiccups, whether they are caused by user-error or not.
 
If you want to know whats gong on with those Lee dicks, you pretty much have to weigh the loads as you throw them, and see what hole is really the one youre looking for. Very rarely were mine ever right by using their chart, and they were always light.

The other thing you need to watch is, the disks like certain types of powder and will "hang" on the ones they dont like. The only time Ive ever had issues with squibs, was using the Lee disks on an old Lee 1000.
 
I eventually acquired a S&W 4506 which can handle much higher pressures than a 45 will produce, so I moved up to the next charge size (.57cu), which threw a consistent 6.2gr charge. that's 3/10'th of a grain over 'max'. That load cycled well, and never gave me any problems. I wouldn't recommend it in most other firearms though.

I don't know where you got the information that 4506 can handle pressures other guns won't but given that Colt chambers the Government Model in 10mm, which operates at a max pressure of 37,500 psi, I think it would be safe to say the Government Model will handle anything the 4506 will.

As for the 6.2g charge of HP-38/231, there are manuals that list 6.2g as max so it isn't necessarily unsafe. I've had to go to 6g of 231 under a 230g plated RN to duplicate the performance of military Ball in 5" Government Models.

Dave
 
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