Autos can be "iffy"

S

Smaug

New member
I never realized how "iffy" autos were...

Yesterday evening, I went shooting.

I brought my S&W 625, my Para GI Expert 1911, and a couple of 22s.

I brought about 100 rounds of reloaded 45. 200 gr plated flat point bullets and a middle dosage of HP38 powder.

About every 5 rounds or so, the 1911 would jam. (stovepipe) Ususally, this points to either a dirty gun that prevents the slide from cycling properly or weak loads, without enough power to cycle the action properly.

The 625 didn't jam at all. Whether I shot it DA or SA, it always fired, and always accurately.


So I accept responsibility here. I didn't weigh the powder charges for these loads. I just used the load table Lee provided for their Auto Disk Pro Powder measure. It was towards the high end of the load data provided in one of my manuals.

Also, I admit that neither gun was clean, but also, neither gun had more than a few hundred rounds through it since last cleaning.

It just made me realize that autos in general can be "iffy":

They will fire reliably IF they have full power loads.
They will fire reliably IF they are not limp-wristed.
They will fire reliably IF they have bullets they like.
They will fire reliably IF their magazine springs aren't tired from sitting loaded in a drawer for years on end.

I know that is not a lot to ask, but I feel that revolvers can be more reliable in real life situations, as opposed to "torture test situations" in which the shooter is seasoned and always shooting from an ideal position.

In a real life self-defense situations, I feel revolvers are the better choice.
 
It's the same tired arguments. They can be iffy, but they can also NOT be iffy. Those if's can all be pretty easily addressed.

They will fire reliably IF they have full power loads.
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A sub-standard load can cause issues for a wheelgun too, depending on just how underpowered it is.

They will fire reliably IF they are not limp-wristed.
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Silly answer: So don't limp-wrist! Serious answer: there's a great deal of variety in which autos are susceptible to limp-wristing, many are not.

They will fire reliably IF they have bullets they like.
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I have several semi-autos for which I have yet to find a bullet they DON'T like.

They will fire reliably IF their magazine springs aren't tired from sitting loaded in a drawer for years on end.
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This simply doesn't happen with good spring, they're worn by constant compression and decompression, rather than merely long-term compression.

Furthermore, the comparison isn't a fair one. In this case you're assuming the revolver is actually a good one; not all of them are. For example, a lot of people would have a hard time trusting a Taurus, Rossi, Charter Arms, or even lower-end makers like Clerke or Rohm. These guns may not "jam" in the same sense as an auto does, but there's still plenty that can go wrong to render a revolver unreliable.
 
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What you pointed out were less detriments of the semi auto and more just plain and simple advantages of the revolver. Nothing you stated makes a semi auto "iffy". It's like pointing out that a semi carries more ammo and is generally flatter. Does that make a revolver iffy?

You do have to confirm the ammo you use functions, you have maintain your gun and you have to do you're part. There's a surprise.

LK
 
Ak, Ak!
My revolver jammed!
No kidding.
One of the rounds backed out a little bit and the cylinder wouldn't rotate to the next round.
It finally went with some persuasion, but it just shows to go that anything mechanical can screw up.
 
These guns may not "jam" in the same sense as an auto does, but there's still plenty that can go wrong to render a revolver unreliable.
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Generally, when the revolvers do have a problem (and thats not all that rare), they are usually done at that point, and the stoppages not readily restored.

Scariest being a squib followed by one or two more full powered loads behind it because you didnt know the first was a squib.

Then theres the ejector rod backing out because you didnt Loc Tite it like you should on any "new" to you revolver.

Bullets backing out under recoil is another problem, and will quickly tie up the gun.

If you werent taught to properly reload a revolver, the old "crap under the star" problem can vary anywhere from a stiff trigger to an outright stoppage.

Internal breakages and timing problems arent all that unheard of either, especially with a gun thats shot a lot with full power loads.

Does that make a revolver iffy?
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Ive experienced all of the above over the years (I was lucky it was in practice, and I was paying attention, and didnt keep shooting after the squib though. :) ), and the guns were out of action at the point it happened.

So far, any stoppages Ive had with an auto, were usually taken care of with a TRB, and the guns were quickly back in action, even if it was an on going thing with some of them.


You do have to confirm the ammo you use functions, you have maintain your gun and you have to do you're part. There's a surprise.
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Apparently. :)
 
In my semi wortless opinion, that's not the greatest evaluation, semi's can be very reliable... My 1911 is closing on 1k rounds without a failure of any kind... I don't even want to say how many times my Glock has been fired without a jam, a lot depends on the quality of your eqipment. If I had to pick my most relable gun ever, it would be my S and W 686, it is the only gun I have that's truely been 100 percent reliable... Revolvers are great but they have their shortcomings too.
 
Not sure I agree with the full power Load comment but limp wresting - don't do it. Bullets - why would you load something your pistol doesn't like? Cleaning and springs fall in the maintenance category - my guns are machines and all machines need proper maintenance. Not one of the four pistols that I routinely take to the range, Colt Government & Commander along with Sig P226 and S&W 4516, have ever malfunctioned except for a squib load from the very first batch of reloads I ever did. (I have since changed my reloading routine).
 
Most police and military seem to not carry revolvers as a primary weapon, yes, Im sure some do but the majority do not... I would think that might speak to auto reliability...
 
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These guns may not "jam" in the same sense as an auto does, but there's still plenty that can go wrong to render a revolver unreliable.

Generally, when the revolvers do have a problem (and thats not all that rare), they are usually done at that point, and the stoppages not readily restored.

Scariest being a squib followed by one or two more full powered loads behind it because you didnt know the first was a squib.

Then theres the ejector rod backing out because you didnt Loc Tite it like you should on any "new" to you revolver.

Bullets backing out under recoil is another problem, and will quickly tie up the gun.

If you werent taught to properly reload a revolver, the old "crap under the star" problem can vary anywhere from a stiff trigger to an outright stoppage.

Internal breakages and timing problems arent all that unheard of either, especially with a gun thats shot a lot with full power loads.

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Does that make a revolver iffy?

Ive experienced all of the above over the years (I was lucky it was in practice, and I was paying attention, and didnt keep shooting after the squib though. ), and the guns were out of action at the point it happened.

So far, any stoppages Ive had with an auto, were usually taken care of with a TRB, and the guns were quickly back in action, even if it was an on going thing with some of them.


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You do have to confirm the ammo you use functions, you have maintain your gun and you have to do you're part. There's a surprise.

Apparently.
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Going, going, and it's a home run! I mentioned all that stuff on another forum, and the revo guy denied he'd ever had any of that stuff happen to/with any of his revolvers. I've had all that stuff happen to all of mine. Add in primer sensitivity, that is, having to be very selective about using primers that the revolver "likes", and I much prefer the reliability of my autos.
 
I tend to agree with the OP to a point; semi-autos can be iffy, or not. Depends on the auto.

Nothing man builds can be 100% forever, and revolvers do fail at times. That said, as primarily a revolver shooter for the last three decades (since about 1980), I've never had a revolver failure that I could blame on the gun. The only "failures" I've experienced had to do with hot loaded .45 Colt ammo with somewhat heavy bullets. I had a Cor-Bon 300 gr .45 Colt "+p" that jumped crimp and stopped the cylinder from turning.

Pretty minor compared to the number of times I've had a small handful of autos that would jam regulary.

I was out back shooting this afternoon, and was using up some old .22 ammo in my Woodsman. It shot ok, but once or twice per magazine I had issues with a cartridge that didn't feed right. I sorta expected it, since this was bulk ammo that's maybe 25 years old. It was flawless with newer ammo; say, maybe 15 years old. :D

My Glock 23 and a few revolvers I shot all worked fine, just as I expected.

Semi-autos, by the way they work, are more prone to feeding problems. Most made these days are very reliable, and I'd trust my life to a proven semi-auto...or a proven revolver for that matter.

Daryl
 
Some autos can be unreliable. There is no doubt about it. Some revolvers can be very unreliable as well. My Taurus M85 was testament to that.

The bottom line is find a gun that you are comfortable and accurate with, find ammo that the gun likes and prove the gun functions as it should. At that point, it doesn't really matter if you have an auto or a revolver.
 
200 gr plated flat point bullets
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Stop using flat point bullets. Get some other mags and keep your gun clean if that's the problem.
Your not the first person to have trouble with a Para GI. Get someone to look at the gun and get it working properly.
I have 7 semi auto pistols in 9mm and .45acp. I can't remember the last time I had a hiccup with one of them. :p
 
I like autos and I like revolvers too.
But there's just no getting around it, autoloaders are more prone to experiencing a failure....

Failure to feed, failure to eject, and stove-pipes just can't happen with a revolver.



That's why we train and practice clearing such failures.


If you carry an autoloader and you don't practice failure drills, or if you think that your pistols are immune from such failures, then you're not being realistic.
 
reliable?

Not getting into the debate, as both types can and do have issues. The biggest plus of a revolver is ability to shoot loads of significantly different power, e.g. from WC to magnum. Plus for SA is capacity and rapid reloading, w. simpler disassembly.
However, I do not agree that the fact that police and military use SA is evidence of their reliability. It is much more likely evidence of cost versus available funding, and the expected scenarios of use.
 
Most police and military seem to not carry revolvers as a primary weapon, yes, Im sure some do but the majority do not... I would think that might speak to auto reliability...
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More like a cost and capacity thing - NYPD paid Glock $72/pistol when they changed to them and bought 30,000 guns. How many times do we see reports where the cops fired 45 shots and shot the BG 3 times?
 
In the thread on .45 to the head, or similar, there's a link to an account of an officer firing 14 rounds, and scoring 7 hits after taking an ambush gunshot to the face.

If he'd had a revolver, he'd have died.

As it was, he survived with a shot to the chin that exited his neck after traversing the left side of his lower jaw; a shot to the right elbow; shots in the right thigh and buttock; and hits that were stopped by his vest over his lung, liver, and heart.

Bad guy kept fighting after 4 body hits (2 to center torso), and succumbed only after 3 point-blank shots to the head.

Officer was using a .40.

Not to knock revolvers; I have 1 Colt and 8 S&W revolvers, and often carry a Model 13 and or Model 442. But there are scenarios where capacity matters, even against a single adversary, and even when accuracy is 50%.
 
like autos and I like revolvers too.
But there's just no getting around it, autoloaders are more prone to experiencing a failure....

Failure to feed, failure to eject, and stove-pipes just can't happen with a revolver.
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Again, it depends on the specific guns in question. There are also problems revolvers can have that semi-autos by nature of their design can't, and there's plenty of potential problems common to both types. For instance, a mediocre or worse revolver may be never stovepipe, but it can have timing, indexing issues, or be so sensitive to fouling that it can seize the cylinder after very few rounds fired. Or it can have problems common to both types of firearm, for example, soft strikes. All of these issues I've seen or personally experienced with revolvers before. These things aren't all remote possibilities that never happen to anyone, they're real concerns... just have a look at the thread on tips for buying a used revolver... there's PLENTY to look at for trying to weed out potential problems.
 
For instance, a mediocre or worse revolver may be never stovepipe, but it can have timing, indexing issues, or be so sensitive to fouling that it can seize the cylinder after very few rounds fired...
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Sure revolvers can have problems.
But revolvers tend to start giving indications of a problem before a total failure occurs.
It's extremely rare for a perfectly functioning revolver to suddenly just stop working without any warning or indication.

But a perfectly functioning autoloader can suddenly choke and fail to extract and eject a round, or fail to feed a round for no apparent reason, and without any warning.

It's just the nature of the beast...autoloaders are just ammo sensitive while revolvers are not.



If you took 10,000 revolvers right off the shelf, brand new, and loaded them with a variety of ammo (of the proper caliber of course), I'm willing to bet all 10,000 would fire the entire cylinder just fine.

But I seriously doubt that 10,000 autoloaders, brand new off the shelf, would each make it through an entire magazine loaded with a variety of ammo (of the proper caliber).

It's just the nature of the beast.
 
the bottom line is what you are trained with and comfortable with.
i've had semis that were picky about ammo, but i never carried them until i was sure they were reliable. the training part of the equation is how to deal with a misfire. single action semi's are my particular choice, because jams can be cleared extremely fast and you still have the double tap capability.
if you train for a malfunction, it's a no brainer.
a lot of talk about semi's being for the more experienced shooters, but i disagree. train with a gun until you can operate it without thinking about it.
that goes for revolvers too. but if you have a timing issue with a revolver, you're pretty much hosed in a combat situation....
jmho
 
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