Spats McGee
Administrator
I can, indeed:Justice06RR said:
Code of Federal Regulations said:
ATF visit over multiple purchase.
- Thread starter Sinatra_Gunz1
- Start date
Justice06RR
New member
Thank you.
I noticed this applies to "Non-licensed" pistol purchases only?
I noticed this applies to "Non-licensed" pistol purchases only?
It really doesn't matter if it is federal law, state law, or just ATF regulation, the multiple purchase reporting does not apply to the buyer, it applies to the FFL (seller).
Several people have mentioned how the ATF showed up without a search warrant. This is actually what we want them to do! They are investigating. There are there to see if what ever it was that tripped their sensors is something suspicious or just something that met reporting criteria.
They don't NEED (and shouldn't have) a search warrant, to show up and ask questions. And, I would like to point out that ALL police/enforcement agencies are allowed by law, to LIE (to anyone) during an investigation. They can tell you anything, real or not, at anytime, up until they are sworn under oath in a court of law.
If they get a warrant, they can, and have, come in with guns blazing. Unannounced and unmarked. Someone shouting "ATF!" while a battering ram is breaking down your door meets the LEGAL requirements for announcing, but is seldom actually heard, and recognized by the people inside. Raids have been done with undercover officers, and even the "raid jackets" have the easily visible marking ON THE BACK (the side you are least likely to see). Those big letters aren't there to tell you who they are (thought they do IF you see them) those markings are there to tell the other agents/oifficers what side the wearer is on, the intent is to reduce "blue on blue" shootings in a very mobile and confusing situation.
The history of ATF raids is ...checkered. And contains many instances where innocent people suffered or died, from Ken Ballew through Waco (and likely before and since that I don't know about). Just because there hasn't been a majorly publicized fiasco in recent years doesn't mean much to me. Maybe they've gotten better at following regular, proper, procedures, or maybe they've just gotten better at not being publically caught when they don't. Either way, its not something I wish to experience first hand.
The old adage that "if you're innocent, you have nothing to hide" is another of the BIG LIES. And it has much more serious consequences than "the dog ate my homework, the check's in the mail", or other common lies.
As previously mentioned, the big risk we face, when we have not done anything illegal is the possibility of them making a case that we have, based on what we OWN, and a story that they MAKE UP, about what we plan to do with it.
At one time, I had copies of the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution & Bill of Rights. I also had a copy of Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, Mao's little Red Book, a Bible, the Torah, and the Koran (Quaran?) along with others, including ARMY field manuals, the Anarchist's Cookbook, Poor Man's James Bond, and even a copy of the Turner Diaries (I wanted to read for myself what the fuss was about). I also have a Tom Clancy novel that tells me how to make a nuclear bomb!
Selective choice of my extensive library could very easily be spun into making me out to be someone I'm not. A very evil, racist, religious, fanatic someone, someone a jury would love to convict on ANYTHING they could.
Remember, all you can do is try to prove what you are, all they have to do is convince a jury what you look like you are.
not always as easy as you think, particularly when the "crime" is something you didn't DO, but could have done, or are "thinking of doing".
Constructive possession and Conspiracy are principles that do have some proper legal applications. However, they are also broadly open ended, and can be misapplied to cover a wide range of completely legal activities. And many innocent people have wound up in court, or worse, because they have been used that way.
Several people have mentioned how the ATF showed up without a search warrant. This is actually what we want them to do! They are investigating. There are there to see if what ever it was that tripped their sensors is something suspicious or just something that met reporting criteria.
They don't NEED (and shouldn't have) a search warrant, to show up and ask questions. And, I would like to point out that ALL police/enforcement agencies are allowed by law, to LIE (to anyone) during an investigation. They can tell you anything, real or not, at anytime, up until they are sworn under oath in a court of law.
If they get a warrant, they can, and have, come in with guns blazing. Unannounced and unmarked. Someone shouting "ATF!" while a battering ram is breaking down your door meets the LEGAL requirements for announcing, but is seldom actually heard, and recognized by the people inside. Raids have been done with undercover officers, and even the "raid jackets" have the easily visible marking ON THE BACK (the side you are least likely to see). Those big letters aren't there to tell you who they are (thought they do IF you see them) those markings are there to tell the other agents/oifficers what side the wearer is on, the intent is to reduce "blue on blue" shootings in a very mobile and confusing situation.
The history of ATF raids is ...checkered. And contains many instances where innocent people suffered or died, from Ken Ballew through Waco (and likely before and since that I don't know about). Just because there hasn't been a majorly publicized fiasco in recent years doesn't mean much to me. Maybe they've gotten better at following regular, proper, procedures, or maybe they've just gotten better at not being publically caught when they don't. Either way, its not something I wish to experience first hand.
The old adage that "if you're innocent, you have nothing to hide" is another of the BIG LIES. And it has much more serious consequences than "the dog ate my homework, the check's in the mail", or other common lies.
As previously mentioned, the big risk we face, when we have not done anything illegal is the possibility of them making a case that we have, based on what we OWN, and a story that they MAKE UP, about what we plan to do with it.
At one time, I had copies of the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution & Bill of Rights. I also had a copy of Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, Mao's little Red Book, a Bible, the Torah, and the Koran (Quaran?) along with others, including ARMY field manuals, the Anarchist's Cookbook, Poor Man's James Bond, and even a copy of the Turner Diaries (I wanted to read for myself what the fuss was about). I also have a Tom Clancy novel that tells me how to make a nuclear bomb!
Selective choice of my extensive library could very easily be spun into making me out to be someone I'm not. A very evil, racist, religious, fanatic someone, someone a jury would love to convict on ANYTHING they could.
Remember, all you can do is try to prove what you are, all they have to do is convince a jury what you look like you are.
not always as easy as you think, particularly when the "crime" is something you didn't DO, but could have done, or are "thinking of doing".
Constructive possession and Conspiracy are principles that do have some proper legal applications. However, they are also broadly open ended, and can be misapplied to cover a wide range of completely legal activities. And many innocent people have wound up in court, or worse, because they have been used that way.
The multiple handgun form may be a FFL responsibility but it does report on the buyers activity.
It reports your ( buyer) transfers of mupile handguns to the nation tracing center. And MSRs in western states.
And that information is archived. And referenced when they need too.
And I have had several follow up calls from the center ahout my client, multiple , handgun purchases .
It reports your ( buyer) transfers of mupile handguns to the nation tracing center. And MSRs in western states.
And that information is archived. And referenced when they need too.
And I have had several follow up calls from the center ahout my client, multiple , handgun purchases .
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Really? They need a warrant to knock on your door and ask questions? You may not have to answer them, but they don't need a warrant to ask.
How can they verify income? There is this federal agency known as the IRS.
In case people have not been paying attention, our nation's dictator has made a priority of busting "unlicensed dealers", and setting federal law enforcement priorities is actually (surprisingly) within the scope of the executive branch.
Professional tax prep people minimize flags that MIGHT get you an IRS tax audit. That doesn't mean everybody whose tax return is questionable will be audited. Some people are targeted. Others just end up among those with minor flags getting almost randomly picked.
Cooperation is a crap shoot. You could hang yourself, or you could snuff out suspicion that would lead to further investigation that might uncover some other minor technicality oversight. Sometimes not cooperating can arouse more suspicion. Sometimes it can protect you from unintentionally giving evidence against yourself, even if you've done nothing wrong.
As far as believing it happened, nothing sounds out of the ordinary for federal agencies to do some minor random checking over a few flags that are noticed. He's not likely to hear from them again if his explanation and ability to show he has not resold them is credible. They are looking to burn the private unlicensed volume "dealers" who often operate as "collectors". The definition of "dealer" is pretty ambiguous.