ATF visit over multiple purchase.

they could monitor ALL gun shops phones with less legal twisting than they were obviously performing for other things. If they record all those 4473 calls and store them they have the ability to convert to a searchable database very quickly
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OK, guys. This is verging on conspiracy.

Let's say the NSA gets super-secret authorization to tap gun dealers' phones. The amount of data actually collected would be meager and incomplete for three reasons.

First, not all transactions require a call. In my state, roughly 1/3 of buyers have a carry license, which exempts them from the background requirement. That's tons of transfers, with no phone call.

Second, most dealers don't have a very sophisticated phone system. We're talking one or two lines. During peak times, they don't want to tie up the phones on hold with the FBI. Instead, employees use their mobile phones to call. Am I to assume the NSA was tapping my personal phone as well?

Third, there is an online application for conducting the checks that doesn't involve making a call at all.

I despise the record-keeping requirements, and I detest the NICS system even more. It's a needlessly burdensome measure that does nothing to curb violent crime, and it unfairly puts a layer of potential liability on gun dealers.

But is it a front to build a national database of gun owners? If it is, it's so deficient as to be laughable.
 
Not to go off on a tangent here but...

It is illegal to deliberately circumvent the law on $10K transactions. Many people have gotten into serious trouble because they withdrew smaller amounts over several days to avoid doing paperwork or arousing suspicion. Some of those folks have ended up having all their money frozen or even confiscated. In some cases, they got bad advice from a well-meaning banker but that doesn't matter.

It is also illegal to spread out gun purchases over several days or several dealers in an effort to avoid arousing suspicion. After all, it makes you look like you're trying to hide something.

I once withdrew 15K cash to buy a used RV and had this same conversation with my banker. It would have been easy to explain since I had the RV, the ad, and all the paperwork.

I've dealt with the BATFE before and found them to be polite and professional. I wouldn't hesitate to show them the guns in question but I don't think I would let them come in and snoop around.
 
"is also illegal to spread out gun purchases over several days or several dealers in an effort to avoid arousing suspicion. After all, it makes you look like you're trying to hide something."

Could you reference in the federal code that assumption. As I have never read that anywhere.
 
lockedcj7 ....It is also illegal to spread out gun purchases over several days or several dealers in an effort to avoid arousing suspicion. After all, it makes you look like you're trying to hide something
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Absolute nonsense.
No.Such.Law.
 
"is also illegal to spread out gun purchases over several days or several dealers in an effort to avoid arousing suspicion. After all, it makes you look like you're trying to hide something."
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When buying hand guns I have been asked if I have bought any others in the last five days because it would count for having to file a multiple purchase form. So I think the purchases would need to be spread out by more than several days to not show up.

On another note I have bought multiple guns from multiple dealers over short and longer time frames and never flagged as a problem. I never even thought about it being a problem. At worst it was just another form for the dealer to file.
 
guncrank said:
"is also illegal to spread out gun purchases over several days or several dealers in an effort to avoid arousing suspicion. After all, it makes you look like you're trying to hide something."

Could you reference in the federal code that assumption. As I have never read that anywhere.
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I would also like to know where any law or regulation makes this illegal.
 
It is also illegal to spread out gun purchases over several days or several dealers in an effort to avoid arousing suspicion.
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The multiple handgun sale requirement is like the 21 year old minimum age for handguns. It does NOT regulate the behavior of the buyer, but of the SELLER.

There is no such wrinkle in statute. Let's be careful what we quote as legal gospel.
 
I understand there are banking regulations if not laws banning "structured payments". If you cash out $9000 today and $1001 tomorrow, you are in violation.
 
It is also illegal to spread out gun purchases over several days or several dealers in an effort to avoid arousing suspicion.
The multiple handgun sale requirement is like the 21 year old minimum age for handguns. It does NOT regulate the behavior of the buyer, but of the SELLER.

There is no such wrinkle in statute. Let's be careful what we quote as legal gospel.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.


The multiple hand gun records the transfer of two more handguns at one time or over a five day period by the BUYER. That information is turned over to the ATF , what that agency does is up to them.
That is all
 
guncrank said:
The multiple hand gun records the transfer of two more handguns at one time or over a five day period by the BUYER. That information is turned over to the ATF , what that agency does is up to them.
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guncrank said:
There is no law that says you cannot buy at multiple FFLs
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Yes, the reporting requirement is if one buyer buys multiple handguns from one FFL within five business days. I think we all agree to that. You have stated that intentionally waiting five or more days before purchasing a second handgun from the same FFL is illegal. Others don't agree with you.

What law or regulation contains the provision to which you refer? Remember, if it's not illegal ... it's legal. If there's no law or regulation that says what you're claiming, then you may be mistaken. I know that my FFL doesn't think there's anything illegal about delaying the purchase of a second handgun by a few days in order to avoid having a multiple purchase report submitted.
 
ATF was once part of the treasury department so I'm sure that there are "old friends" that could tell what ones income is with a simple phone call
 
I never said the waiting more than five days is illegal
You may have read a quote of a previous writer that I copied but nothing I said

Again there is no law that says waiting more than five days or buying from multiple FFL is illegal.
 
hbhobby said:
ATF was once part of the treasury department so I'm sure that there are "old friends" that could tell what ones income is with a simple phone call
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Or it could have been simple old-fashioned detective work based upon the fact that the suspect lives in a cheap apartment and drives a 15-year-old economy car with no hubcaps and a current junior-college parking sticker on the back window. :)

Or the agents actually didn't know anything at all about his income, and simply made that statement up to goad him into confessing something that could be useful to them. There's a substantial body of constitutional case law upholding the ability of police to deceive or mislead suspects in order to gain information about possible criminal activity.

There are all sorts of possible explanations that don't rely on elaborate conspiracies.
 
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There are all sorts of possible explanations that don't rely on elaborate conspiracies.
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.....yep.

I have a friend who has a friend in AZ who bought two handguns in a period of 5 business days that got a visit from the ATF last month.
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Over the last five years I have bought two or three handguns of the same kind, at the same time, at one point of sale, probably 5 or 6 times. Mostly gifts for my boys. Never got a call or a visit. I must be doing something wrong.......
 
Over the last five years I have bought two or three handguns of the same kind, at the same time, at one point of sale, probably 5 or 6 times. Mostly gifts for my boys. Never got a call or a visit. I must be doing something wrong.......
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Yeah, you're not a TRUE gun nut until you get a visit by the ATF. :D
 
I'd bought a PPSH-41 (and parts kit) and had it shipped to where I worked. BATF showed up without a warrant. This is not a friend of a friend. It's ME. So yes, it happens.
 
I stand corrected. I thought it was illegal and, as many of you correctly pointed out, I was mistaken. I have read the relevant portions of the law and cannot find any support for my assumption.

It is my understanding that, in banking, it is not illegal to make multiple withdrawals totaling more than 10K in a short period. It is illegal if your purpose in doing so is to evade the bank's duty to notify.

Please correct me if I am wrong or if the situation is more nuanced than I am thinking.
 
lockedcj7 said:
....It is my understanding that, in banking, it is not illegal to make multiple withdrawals totaling more than 10K in a short period. It is illegal if your purpose in doing so is to evade the bank's duty to notify.

Please correct me if I am wrong or if the situation is more nuanced than I am thinking.
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A law specific to banking doesn't apply to firearm transactions.
 
On multiple buys within a week, it's the law that the dealer is to report the sales to the ATF.
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Can someone post this law? I'm curious of the legal writing where this comes from.

Many of us here buy multiple firearms in a week or even in a single transaction. I think what concerns ATF more are the questionable buyers who raise red flags.
 
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