ATF: Reclassification of M855/SS109 ammo as armor-piercing

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BTW: Today SCOTUS ruled 9-0 that federal agencies are not required to notify the public when interpretation of rules are changed. This could be a biggie for us.
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This only applies to rules and regulatory changes that "do not have the force and effect of law". Sec. 4 of the APA still applies to legislative rulemaking.

Thallub disappeared his post concerning the recent SCOTUS decision; but while the ruling is not directly relevant to this; some of the side issues are still relevant to us. While I feel confident a winning argument will be made that this is a legislative ruling, I'm equally confident that in court, ATF will argue that is only an interpretive ruling and subject to greater deference from the courts. If this ends up going to court, that is probably going to be a key decision that effects our prospects.

In the referenced SCOTUS ruling, the opposing party did not dispute that the ruling was an interpretive ruling until after the question had already been framed at the Supreme Court level. Since the issue had not come up at the Appeals court and since they didn't even dispute it when framing the question, SCOTUS rightly said they would not consider that argument.

However, whether this is an interpretive ruling or legislative ruling is likely to be an important point of future litigation.
 
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The reason why they ban the M855 is so the military can have more of it for their wars on terrorism. That, of course, is my personal opinion and no Im not an expert on that issue
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I'll have to disagree with your opinion.

The last time the government "banned" anything so the military could have more of it was rationing during WWII. '

If the military needs more ammo, they simply put out a contract, and buy it. The M855 ammo on the market today (and since it first hit the market) is military surplus, or more likely contract overruns, sold on the civilian market.
(the factory made 24billion rounds, the military only bought 23, the rest goes on the civilian market.)

The reason people are getting so upset about the proposed ban is #1) they believe (rightly I think) that the ATF is exceeding its lawful authority, #2) it WON'T have any effect on police safety, and #3) ALL it will do (if it becomes the law) is remove another source of the cheapest ammo from the reach of the law abiding gun owner.
 
johnelmore said:
In any event banning the M855 because it can shoot through a wall or a vest is idiotic as many rifle rounds can shoot through these things. The ATF cant be this stupid. There has to be another reason.
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The reason is partisan political posturing, and I believe this to be one of two proverbial opening salvos in a legislative attack on AR pistols more generally. The other opening salvo is the nebulous interpretive waffling re: the SIG pistol brace.

This has nothing- nada, zilch, zip, zero- to do with the U.S. military.
 
From the ATF Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/HQATF):

Notice to those Commenting on the Armor Piercing Ammunition Exemption Framework

Thank you for your interest in ATF's proposed framework for determining whether certain projectiles are "primarily intended for sporting purposes" within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). The informal comment period will close on Monday, March 16, 2015. ATF has already received more than 80,000 comments, which will be made publicly available as soon as practicable. Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study. Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework. After the close of the comment period, ATF will process the comments received, further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process (for example, through additional proposals and opportunities for comment) before proceeding with any framework.
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So, assuming that this is a legitimate Facebook page and not something that someone just did as a practical joke; it looks like ATF is giving us a "I'll get you my pretty! You and your little dog too!" before flying off on its broom. We will probably be revisiting this issue again if Congress doesn't step in to smash it now; but the good news is:

A) No framework will be issued at this time
B) There will be additional proposal and opportunity for comment before ATF seeks to go forward
 
So, if I read that correctly, no ban is planned now?
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Oh, "they" still plan on pushing a ban. They will just have to be more sneaky next time.

But yeah, I think we deserve to pat ourselves on the back. *pat pat*

Okay, celebration is over. Back to work.
 
kinda feel bad for all the suckers that spent 3x as much as regular cost for all the 855 they could find......not really though. I do know when the projectiles get back in stock and down to 80$ per k again, ill prolly buy a few thousand to hold on to when the NEXT ban talks come around again. this administration has been exceptionally great at selling guns and ammo. this has to be the most profitable 6 years in the gun industry in a long long time

ive been seeing the projectiles alone selling for 20c a round instead of the average 7-9c
 
Read the fine print:

The agency said it will instead wait until Americans have finished
commenting on the federal regulations and evaluate their comments
and suggestions before "proceeding with any framework."

They've done nothing except innoculate themselves against a lawsuit based on procedural issues -- not on the deliberate re-interpretation of the existing Reg.

That is still in the works... and you can bet your bottom dollar it will reappear.
 
A lot of sound and fury about nothing.

The 'ban' WILL NOT happen.

The reclassification will still apply to HANDGUNS.

The guys showing off with those chopped down AR-15 based "Handguns" are susceptible to the previous restrictions on 'Armor Piercing' or 'Cop Killer' bullets in a hand guns that are currently on the books.

As pointed out before,
Short barreled weapons don't produce the muzzle velocity to make the 'Penetrators' work as designed,

And anyone that thinks the .223 Rem/5.56x45mm NATO round is a 'Handgun' cartridge is missing the boat to start with...

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And a little consideration PLEASE!
I didn't crap on ANYONE in this thread,
Not directly, or IMPLIED anyone's *OPINION* about the issue was 'Correct', 'Not Correct', Mis-Informed, ect.

I CLEARLY labeled my opinion as just that.

Since I have several close friends that are law enforcement,
And THEY are worried about these short barreled AR-15 based firearms,
And they are worried about the 'Green Tip' ammo,
I'm going to deffer to what I've seen them do and talk about... Since they ARE the guys facing this stuff and know what they are talking about.

As for the the penetration of these rounds,
I probably know as much about this issue as any 'Layman', Since the company I work for makes suspension to hold up ARMORED vehicles...

Military Contacts, Civilian Contracts with the companies producing the armor for these 'Common' vehicles the Border Patrol uses.

I've seen the actual vehicles that got shot up,
I've dug the bullets out of the vehicles,
I've seen the steel cores, dug the 'Green Tip' jackets out of the vehicles...

So go ahead and say it's a 'Fabrication' to try and support your NARROW view point...
Attack the guy trying to look at ALL SIDES of the issue.
Not uncommon, but it still doesn't SOLVE ANYTHING when you post stuff on the internet without taking a look at ALL SIDES OF THE ISSUE...

Personally,
I have no use for 'Green Tip' ammo, so it doesn't effect me one way or the other.
There are MUCH more accurate long range rounds out there for what I do,
Mostly hunting and target shooting.

There are MUCH cheaper rounds out there for 'Plinking' and just wasting ammo.

I'm not a 'One Issue' type of guy.
I'd like to have an INFORMED PLATFORM to make my decisions from.
 
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And anyone that thinks the .223 Rem/5.56x45mm NATO round is a 'Handgun' cartridge is missing the boat to start with.
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What anyone may think is irrelevant. The law, as written, is what matters. It doesn't differentiate between whether a round is used in a handgun or a rifle: all that matters is that it may be used in a handgun.
 
There are AR15 pistols, but smart criminals use revolvers because they dont leave any shells behind and the revolver is a no brainer to use. You would have to be a dumb criminal to use a rifle. You cant exactly do an armed robbery if they see you coming with a rifle. A rifle would also make the police Swat team come out immediately in full force. Cant hide the rifle or the AR15 pistol in the glove.

So if a criminal uses a rifle or AR15 pistol they are probably on a suicide mission or just real dumb. The moment they step into public with it is the moment someone starts calling 911 reporting a man with a rifle followed by those guys in the armored vehicles rushing in...if its a friendly state the response might be kinder, but in the unfriendly state the response would be more like armored vehicles and helmets.
 
JeepHammer said:
Since I have several close friends that are law enforcement,
And THEY are worried about these short barreled AR-15 based firearms,
And they are worried about the 'Green Tip' ammo,
I'm going to deffer to what I've seen them do and talk about... Since they ARE the guys facing this stuff and know what they are talking about.
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The Fraternal Order of Police isn't concerned, about either the ammo or the AR-15 pistols. It's not like you can easily conceal an AR-15 handgun.

As for the ammo, pretty much any centerfire rifle cartridge will penetrate the soft body armor worn by patrol officers on a daily basis. I've never tested it, but I'm pretty sure the M193 ammo I carried in Vietnam would zip right through soft body armor, and it wouldn't surprise me if all flavors of 7.62x39 will do likewise.

As for the the penetration of these rounds,
I probably know as much about this issue as any 'Layman', Since the company I work for makes suspension to hold up ARMORED vehicles...
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How does working on armored car suspensions make you an expert on soft body armor?

I don't think anyone is trying to say that the M855 won't penetrate soft body armor. The issues are that:
  • AR-15 handguns just aren't being used by goblins in street crime
  • The M855 construction does not meet the definition of "armor piercing" in the law that the BATFE is claiming to be "interpreting"
  • Plain vanilla M193 is just as likely to penetrate soft body armor as M855, but there's nothing about it the BATFE can hang their hat on to ban that
Basically, the BATFE is exceeding their authority and moving the goalpost 29 years after the stadium was built and the field laid out, suddenly "interpreting" a 29-year old law to mean exactly what Congress said at the time it did NOT mean.


I'm happy to see that the BATFE has decided to hold off -- for now. It's the "for now" that worries me. To me it just means the next time they'll work harder to cover their bases, and find a more ironclad way to ban as many types of ammo as they can using pretexts that will be more difficult to challenge in court.

Remember: "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings."
 
What anyone may think is irrelevant. The law, as written, is what matters. It doesn't differentiate between whether a round is used in a handgun or a rifle: all that matters is that it may be used in a handgun.
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EXACTLY CORRECT.

Now, blame the guys that just had to make a 'Handgun' out of a rifle round/action instead of blaming the BATFE.

When 3.5 Million of these things get sold,
It's no longer a 'Curisoty' or 'Aberration'

(cu·ri·os·i·ty \ˌkyu̇r-ē-ˈä-s(ə-)tē\.
noun: the desire to learn or know more about
something or someone. : something that is interesting because it is unusual.

ab·er·ra·tion/ˌabəˈrāSH(ə)n/
noun, 1. a departure from what is normal, usual, or expected, typically one that is unwelcome.)

A 'Curisoty' or 'Aberration' is allowed for under the law.
When the firearm in question goes main stream,
And 3.5 million makes it mainstream by any reasonable standard,
Then it's time to take a good long look at the application...

The LEGAL precedence is NO ARMOR PIERCING BULLETS FOR HANDGUNS.

And some makers though it was a good idea to make a 'Handgun' out of the .223 Rem/5.56x45 RIFLE round...

So blame the short sighted MANUFACTURERS AND BUYERS...

Doesn't matter if it's a City, County, State or Federal LAW,
It's still the LAW.
(and often it's just a darn good idea!)

"It's an 88 Magnum, it shoots through schools."
-Danny Vermin
 
Here is today's ATF Notice as posted on the ATF.gov website.

Notice to those Commenting on the Armor Piercing Ammunition Exemption Framework

Thank you for your interest in ATF's proposed framework for determining whether certain projectiles are “primarily intended for sporting purposes” within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). The informal comment period will close on Monday, March 16, 2015. ATF has already received more than 80,000 comments, which will be made publicly available as soon as practicable.

Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study. Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework. After the close of the comment period, ATF will process the comments received, further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process (for example, through additional proposals and opportunities for comment) before proceeding with any framework.
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JeepHammer, IMO, none of your comments are well-informed or helpful thus far.

Guys, we have one a single battle in a campaign; but we are a long ways from winning the campaign or the war. We need to press Congress to resolve this issue before ATF can revisit it. There are still some very disturbing claims that ATF has not relinquished:

1) M855 wasn't AP ammo by statute to begin with and ATF's "exemption" was a farce. ATF needs to explain how they arrived at that erroneous conclusion and Congress needs to describe to ATF why that conclusion was erroneous.

2) ATF used a great deal of leeway in interpreting phrases that Congress did not define. Congress needs to removes that ability from ATF by either removing the statutory authority or more strictly defining the terms ATF relied on for their failed power grab.

Right now, we have a lot of angry gun owners who are mobilized and mad. We need to capitalize on this. ATF realizes now that they made a big mistake. They ARE going to revisit this. When they do, they will have learned from this mistake. And they'll be hoping that gun owners have been lulled back to sleep. Instead of trying to wake everyone up, inform them, and spur them to action next time, we need to use the momentum we already have to pursue and destroy ATF while they are retreating.
 
Jeephammer, I'm trying to understand your position. Were you ok with SS109/M855 as long as it was fired from rifles? What makes M855/SS109 more dangerous to police wearing soft body armor than other .223/5.56 rounds?
 
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