ATF Project Gunrunner

Sharyl Attkisson's latest report covers Wide Receiver:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/05/earlyshow/main20115824.shtml

According to the FFL involved in Wide Receiver, this program allowed guns to walk and started in 2006! It is difficult to get a precise number of guns involved since there were actually several different cases apparently. The FFL says he sold about 450 guns to straw purchasers. The one big case, Wide Receiver, involved 269 guns; of which only 47 were seized by law enforcement. At this time, the status of the others is still unclear (meaning potentially 222 guns walked). The program was run by the same ATF Phoenix office that would later give us Fast & Furious. And for some strange reason, the investigation stopped and there were no charges for several years, then in 2010, they charged 7 low-level straw purchasers and wrapped the investigation.

Ironically, the U. S. Attorney handling Wide Receiver until 2007 was Paul Charlton, the same attorney who is now suing the government on behalf of the Terry family. According to the Arizona Daily Star, Charlton has stated he did not authorize guns to walk; but acknowledges responsibility if that happened "on his watch."

I don't know if the accusations will stick to Holder; but clearly someone at DOJ is lying. We've gone from "There was no gun walking to DOJ didn't know about gun-walking to DOJ knew about gun walking; but it wasn't Fast and Furious they knew about it."
 
Put your tinfoil hat on for a second. It has been suggested in the thread that letting more guns go south was an attempt to manufacture a reason for more gun control.

The DEA is continually under fire for spending huge amounts of money and not producing much of a lasting impact during the last 70 years of the war on drugs.

Could this have also been a way to make the cartels look bigger and badder than they are? Then make the ATF and DEA look like heroes when they finally rush in and save the day by shutting down the bad guys?

Basically a widespread plot to artificially escalate a problem so that the government can step in on multiple levels save the day and justify their paychecks.
 
Chaz, as multiple people are slowly concluding, the idea this op(s) was undertaken to nail some capos in Mexico is past fantasy and incompetence, completely unreal. About as hopeful of success as walking away from a game of Russian Roulette played with a 1911 and a full magazine.

As Sherlock Holmes (or was it some engineer?) said..."if we know what something ISN'T, we are getting closer to figuring out what it IS."

So even Anderson Cooper's reporter on the scene reported that the theory of F+F being a political gambit of some sort is more likely the more information that arises. The conspiracy "nuts" are not so nutty at all, compared to the people trying to sell the "narrative".

Tinfoil is optional, methinks.
 
Sherlock Holmes stated at various times with minor deviation , "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

DOJ's current story is Holder was given some information about cases buried in reports and simply did not pay that much attention to them. But, IIRC, at least one of the reports referred to "hundreds" of guns walking. You would think that would get the Attorney General's attention. :rolleyes:

Added: Okay, here's a memo which is dated July 5, 2010 and refers to a case which says "...straw purchasers are responsible for the purchase of 1,500 firearms that were then supplied to the Mexican drug trafficking cartels." Look at page 3 of the pdf document, numbered page 4 of the report: http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/pdf_40_43.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Folks, this is a 12 page weekly report of major cases. This is not a two hundred page document where something like this might conceivably go unnoticed. And DOJ claims Holder didn't notice 1,500 illegally purchased?
 
Last edited:
Chaz88 said:
Could this have also been a way to make the cartels look bigger and badder than they are? Then make the ATF and DEA look like heroes when they finally rush in and save the day by shutting down the bad guys?

Basically a widespread plot to artificially escalate a problem so that the government can step in on multiple levels save the day and justify their paychecks.
Click to expand...

You mean like "Showtime" at Waco?
 
I heard on the radio on the way home today that there's a group of Arizona Sheriffs that are calling for Holder's resignation or termination and an investigation into how and why the US Government is feeding the flow of weapons to cartel elements in their respective jurisdictions without their knowledge.
 
Basically a widespread plot to artificially escalate a problem so that the government can step in on multiple levels save the day and justify their paychecks.
Click to expand...

Over the years I have heard more than a few local cops who worked for whatever reason with federal law enforcement.... It seems to me there is a feeling that many in federal law enforcement seem to have a superiority complex as big as Texas and a work ethic as small as a pea...

If that is a true picture of how it really is I have no Idea but there is clearly a dislike of many agents at the federal level for whatever reason...

I myself have no real basis to make a judgement other than second hand comments...

It seems to me if they do feel superior then there is no need to justify anything and this is just another political play.
 
Last edited:
KyJim said:
Folks, this is a 12 page weekly report of major cases. This is not a two hundred page document where something like this might conceivably go unnoticed. And DOJ claims Holder didn't notice 1,500 illegally purchased?
Click to expand...

People like Holder don't have to read the documents. Reports like the one cited are the handouts for regular meetings in which department heads keep the boss updated on what is happening in their respective departments. Holder may not have read a report or noticed a sentence about 1,500 guns, but some Deputy AG would have made darn sure that Holder heard about the 'important work' being done in that Deputy AG's department.
 
Holder's letter to Congress

People like Holder don't have to read the documents. Reports like the one cited are the handouts for regular meetings in which department heads keep the boss updated on what is happening in their respective departments. Holder may not have read a report or noticed a sentence about 1,500 guns, but some Deputy AG would have made darn sure that Holder heard about the 'important work' being done in that Deputy AG's department.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what Holder is claiming in a letter today to Congress. http://www.foxnews.com/interactive/...older-letter-to-congress-on-fast-and-furious/
 
Don't blame Obama... Blame Bush! <-- the mantra is coming apart at the seams.
Click to expand...

I don't care if it goes back to George Washington, fixing it won't start until all the cards are on the table! This left-right crap, to the detriment of justice, has got to stop.
 
I quite agree, pnac. Just because something similar happened under the Bush administration does not excuse this fiasco.

Both were wrong.

The problem here is that under Wide Receiver, the operation was stopped when they noticed that their (limited) safeguards were bypassed and 450 guns were walked. Under Fast & Furious, no safeguards were used and it didn't stop until a US Border Agent was murdered.

Over at Pajamas Media, Bob Owens lays out the differences and calls for heads to roll under both administrations.
 
Holder is blaming Congress for the straw purchase problem to deflect blame from Fast and Furious. He says ATF officials testified before Congress that penalties for straw purchases are not severe enough to dissuade law breakers or to provide incentive for violators to cooperate with law enforcement. Lack of reporting requirement for multiple long gun purchases in a short period of time is a problem. "[T]oo many in Congress are opposed to any discussion of fixing loopholes in our laws that facilitate the staggering flow of guns each year across our border to the south."

http://www.foxnews.com/interactive/...older-letter-to-congress-on-fast-and-furious/

So, here it is. Just as most of us knew. Fast and Furious is being used as a tool for tougher gun laws. The gloves are off.
 
KyJim said:
That's exactly what Holder is claiming in a letter today to Congress.
Click to expand...

Holder probably has a winning claim. Things like the real rationale for Operation Fast & Furious are communicated verbally and not committed to writing. Unless someone was incredibly stupid, there is no "smoking gun" written record of OF&F that explicitly involves Holder. The people who could talk definitively about Holder's role in OF&F will not do so as long as they believe they will be protected. At worst, someone several layers down from the top will step forward and take the blame to put an end to the issue.
 
Bob Owens of Pajamas Media explains the sleight-of-hand trick being played here. I'd link to it; but the link kept crashing Safari.

Basically, the big difference between Wide Receiver and Fast & Furious is that the guns in Wide Receiver contained RFID tracking devices and law enforcement was attempting to interdict the guns. Guns walked because the smugglers knew the tail numbers of government aircraft and would wait for them to refuel before crossing. In addition, the RFID devices proved to have both a shorter than expected range and less than expected battery life. Once they realized ~ 200 guns had walked, they stopped the investigation.

According to the same FFL who told about Wide Receiver, the ATF, ASAC, and SAC in Phoenix lied to the AUSA about these problems and told the AUSA the weapons were being tracked. When the AUSA discovered the lies, he refused to bring charges as he felt the case was now crippled by the Phoenix ATFs untruthfulness. Accordingly, there were no charges in the investigation until the new AUSA decided to round up the straw purchasers.
 
I think Issa and Grassley should investigate operation Wide Receiver whole heartedly.

If anyone in the Obama administration thinks that WR helps them in some way or deflects criticism - they are wrong.

Get it all out in the open I say - eventually operation Wide Receiver will only serve to make F&F look even MORE egregious!

This is a program that was cancelled because it failed! And who decided to repeat that??? If it was George Bush and his people who thought up Wide Receiver - shame on them, but who’s dumber – more importantly – who is more culpable – the people who thought it up the first time or the people who resurrected an operation that was a proven failure in the past.

I’d love to hear the questions

“Given that Operation Wide Receiver was an admitted failure and was shut down, and produced no high-level indictments – why would anyone attempt a similar operation such as Fast and Furious?”

“If drug cartel members were able to defeat interdiction efforts in Operation Wide Receiver because the RFID devices proved to have both inadequate range and less than expected battery life – how was Operation Fast and Furious going to correct that operation shortcoming by not placing tracking devices in the weapons at all?”

“How was Operation Fast and Furious going to achieve it’s stated operational goals if there were no tracking devices in the weapons?”

The fact that Operation Wide Receiver went before F&F makes the position of everyone involved with F&F that much more difficult.
 
I've read the letter, and do not even know where to begin. How about here:
Eric Holder said:
[referring to the various reports that show up addressed to him, but read by others:] . . . . It is important to look at the documents supposedly at issue here, and, for that reason, I have attached them to this letter and am making them public in the form they were previously provided by us to Congress. Please note that none of these summaries say anything about the unacceptable tactics employed by ATF.
Click to expand...

Reeaaaallly?!? THAT'S where he wants to go?

image001.jpg
 
“Given that Operation Wide Receiver was an admitted failure and was shut down, and produced no high-level indictments – why would anyone attempt a similar operation such as Fast and Furious?”
Click to expand...

A consistent pattern of the Obama administration is to pursue failed ideas, from crony capitalism, Keynesian economics, appeasement of enemies, marxist principles of healthcare delivery, etc. This is just another example with the twist that a LOT of violence and chaos invariably produces some outcry for more law and enforcement.

The stated goal in F+F, as more evidence is disclosed, has gone from "a stretch" to "botched" to complete fantasy way past incompetence or simple error. It simply cannot be why the op was undertaken, nobody involved is that incompetent.

Nine programs in five states, it appears now, arming cartel and domestic gangs? Nobody is so incompetent or reckless to have undertaken this in error or "botched" the op. This is purposeful criminal activity, most likely to set off a cry for a new AWB and addtional crack-down on all aspects of firearms.

There might be other benefits. Salvador Allende was smuggling arms into Chile as things went further and further the wrong way for him and his cadre, in their "transformation" of Chile.

The deeper people dig, the worse it looks. Where is the bottom? I couldn't believe this was anything more than idiocy for a long time, but had to surrender to evidence. This scheme has poltical goals unrelated to the capos in Mexico or in the US. Where is the bottom and what else is out there?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top