ATF Project Gunrunner

I was one that weathered Hurricane Andrew, and the so-called "martial law" that was declared was a great exaggeration of the term. It pretty much just meant that the Army Corps of Engineers was out in areas cut off by damaged infrastructure while being escorted by some MPs to make sure no one messed with them. Those areas had already been evacuated, and the police were still operating anywhere they could drive. As far I know, we've never seen a "real" martial law in force.
 
gyvel said:
Bear in mind that this only applies to the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines, and Coast Guard in times of war, but NOT to National Guard units because they are under the control of the governors of the states.
Click to expand...

While it is true that the military cannot participate in criminal investigations etc. under posse comitatus, they ARE allowed to do drug interdiction. That is how military materiel was able to be brought to bear at Waco. They simply penciled in "suspected drug lab" and Voila! they had what they wanted. Those tanks and helicopters were not DEA or ATF nor were they operated by DEA or ATF personnel.
 
I was one that weathered Hurricane Andrew, and the so-called "martial law" that was declared was a great exaggeration of the term. It pretty much just meant that the Army Corps of Engineers was out in areas cut off by damaged infrastructure while being escorted by some MPs to make sure no one messed with them. Those areas had already been evacuated, and the police were still operating anywhere they could drive. As far I know, we've never seen a "real" martial law in force.
Click to expand...

I was there too, and agree that what we had was "barely law" not martial law. I did have to go through a checkpoint the one time I went out at night shortly after the storm. Friend's wedding. I had to show ID to re-enter my neighborhood.

Now, everyone sit back and imagine that all the news media start reporting that martial law will start nationwide tomorrow. Can you imagine it actually happening? I can, if the whole country suddenly looked like my old neighborhood (SW 159th St) the day after Andrew. It would be a good idea, too! Short of that, I really can't.

Back to gunwalking.
 
jimpeel, my experience with drug interdiction ops was that while we (the Navy) might do boardings on the high seas, it was more likely that we'd carry a LE detachment for the actual boardings. In US territorial waters, we'd work in conjunction with the Coast Guard, and let them do the boardings. We were told this was due to posse comitatus.

I am not sure what grounds were used to bring in military hardware at Waco.
 
My understanding is that Reno claimed that drugs were involved at Waco and that justified using the military helicopters for support. Drug war seems to have exemptions to many of the normal military and Bill of Rights restrictions.
 
I am not sure what grounds were used to bring in military hardware at Waco.
Click to expand...
To the best of my recollection, no explanation was ever provided. The whole thing was brushed under the rug. The public was told that the Davidians were abusing children, that the administration was protecting us, and that the people protesting it were a bunch of off-balance pro-militia gun nuts.

It worked back then. It won't work now.
 
Google though I might, I can't find anything to indicate whether the tanks or Bradleys used at Waco were US Army or Texas National Guard. If National Guard, posse comitatus would not have been an issue. If US Army, then it would.

Does anybody know who sourced the armor?
 
Outside the compound nine Bradley Fighting Vehicles carrying M651 CS tear gas grenades and Ferret rounds, as well as five M-60 combat engineering vehicles (CEVs) obtained from the US Army began patrolling.
Click to expand...
From wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege#cite_ref-iw_17-13
from:
Neil Rawles. (February 2, 2007). Inside Waco. [Television documentary]. Channel 4/HBO.
Click to expand...

Hate to quote Wiki, but that's the story as far as they are concerned.
From Fort Hood supposedly under General Wesley Clark's Cavalry command, some believe.
 
Last edited:
Also from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege

ATF obtained training for the raid from Special Forces at Fort Hood, Texas, February 25 though 27, by making a false claim that David Koresh was operating a methamphetamine lab. This provided the drug nexus necessary to obtain military assets under the "War on Drugs".[26]
 
Regarding Posse Comitatus, looking at some of the antics of the past several administrations, Bush #1, Bush #2, Clinton and Obama, I do not know how much I'd bet on "PC". Of course, I could be completely wrong. I have been wrong before.
 
Wed, page A4 my local paper:

Official apologizes for mistakes in gun probe

ATF head said project to stop flow of guns into Mexico backfired

Associated Press


....shares responsibility for mistakes...resulted in high-powered weapons flowing into Mexico...

William McMahon, head of ATF's Western Region...said that looking back there are things it would have done differently...

....failed to keep close enough track of the investigation...

..The strategy carried the risk that the tracking dimension of the program would be inadequate and that some guns would wind up in Mexico or on the U.S. side of the border in the hands of criminals and gbe used at crime scenes - which is what has happened.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

there is a little more fluff in the short article, but that is the jist of it.

Note there is no mention of the Fed agent killed, nor of anyone higher up than McMahon apologizing.
 
The disgust factor seems to be heating up in Congress.
The ATFE Reform Act of 2011 is picking up steam:

H.R.1093
154 sponsors

S.835
4 sponsors

A related bill ( also driven by disgust with the current Administration ) is The Collectible Firearms Protection Act .

H.R. 615
118 sponsors

S.381
10 sponsors.

The Collectible Firearms Protection Act would remove the power of Mrs. Clinton's State Department and the Pentagon beancounters to meddle with imports of USGI C&R guns like M1 Garands, M1 Carbines & 1911 series pistols.
 
H.R. 1093: To reform the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, modernize firearms laws and regulations, protect the community from criminals, and for other purposes.

Sounds good to me!

I wonder if ever this becomes law if people can stop worrying about whether putting a CCU carbine kit upper on their Glocks turns them into SBRs or if putting the Glock slide back on it means they've modified a rifle...
 
C0untZer0

Perhaps they could streamline things by repealing the 1934 NFA act and have those items transferred on a 4473 instead. Think of all the resources that could be saved by closing down the NFA branch and instead spending that money on enforcement. Obviously the NFA branch is a redundant department now that we have the 1968 GCA. Getting rid of it would streamline the ATF significantly. ;)
 
While not directly related to F&F or Gunwalker, this is related in "Abuse" by the DOJ and associates. Why bother with constitutional safe guards if one can bypass them and then block review by the courts.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/02/government-wants-to-keep-secrets-in-fbi-lawsuit/

"The government's position here is the FBI's conduct should be beyond the review of the courts, which would render the protections of the constitution meaningless," Bibring said. "Following the government's argument, any domestic law enforcement operation deemed to effect national security would be beyond review."
 
On Reform of the BATFE mentioned by C0untZer0 is a contemporary post.

Sounds like a good idea except for the following, this is as I see it. "Reform" of this mob is something unlikely to happen, I speak of firearms enforcement, and its' relationship thereto, because the agency, concerning management has shown itself all to willing to prostitute itself, and is otherwise rotten to the core.

I would think that the following might accomplish something worthwhile, IF it can be done.

The laws, re forearms, that BATFE supposedly enforces, need to be repealed. I don't know if this is doable, given the make-up of congress (House and Senate), but that's what comes to mind. Concerning BATFE, take it's toys away.

The following posted by Dead.

Dead While not directly related to F&F or Gunwalker, this is related in "Abuse" by the DOJ and associates. Why bother with constitutional safe guards if one can bypass them and then block review by the courts.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/02...n-fbi-lawsuit/

"The government's position here is the FBI's conduct should be beyond the review of the courts, which would render the protections of the constitution meaningless," Bibring said. "Following the government's argument, any domestic law enforcement operation deemed to effect national security would be beyond review."
---------------------------

Re the last part, I submit that any public official, elected or appointed, that has the unmitigated gaul to attempt to foist off such rubbish should be publicly horsewhipped.
 
The summary of H.R. 1093 sounds good but the bill is not doing an overhaul of the agency or anything when you read the details.

I have said in other posts that the FBI is a much more competent investigative and law enforcement agency. I do think the BATFE should be abolished, there are other agencies much more capable of doing most of the BATFE's functions. As for much of their rule making and the creation of regulations and their role in defining what firearms are what category of weapons (sbr etc...), that is a lot of nonsense and we don't need a huge agency to be doing that.
 
Won't get any argument from me . Still , if the votes aren't there to kill the monster , then clipping some of it's claws & pulling some teeth sounds better than the current arrangement.

That's the downside to a constitutional republic - it takes votes to win. No philosopher kings to make it all better , starting yesterday.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top