maestro pistolero
New member
If they dedicate any more law enforcement resources to this issue, I'm afraid there won't be any guns left on the shelves to funnel.
ATF Project Gunrunner
- Thread starter Al Norris
- Start date
It's called the Hegelian Dialectic, thesis-antithesis-synthesis or problem-reaction-solution. In this case ATF creates the problem - guns from US reaching Mexican drug cartels and gangs. Wait for the reaction- "OMG the gangs are getting firearms, save us!". Gov, as a solution, passes more gun laws and destroys more rights to make you safer.
There's nothing liberal about it, this is the way populations have been manipulated to act against their own interests throughout history. The only reason many are seeing it now is because it's so obvious and because their own ox is being gored. At least they're waking up.
FrontSight
New member
Good point, good point; I should have said TYRANNY Playbook 101
HarrySchell
New member
She never fails to figure out a good solution to a problem.
kilimanjaro
New member
It's becoming clearer by the day that the people responsible for this are guilty of heinous crimes, and those who support them are guilty of partisan depravity.
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JustThisGuy
New member
Obama issues State of Emergency July 25, 2011
Obama issues new "State of Emergency" 2011-07-25 which as I read it, could possibly result in the seizure of all assets of innocent gun store owners whose young employee was "tricked" by a DoJ official into a skillfully worded "straw purchase" (out of state buyer - buying a gun illegal in his community but legal where the gun store is located).
Note: The State of Emergency is very broad and cuts across transnational criminals in many countries, but the Zetas cartels are included and that would likely be the focus of any action against innocent gun store owners.
http://m.whitehouse.gov/the-press-o...uspension-entry-aliens-subject-united-nations
“Today’s criminal organizations are increasingly sophisticated. They know no borders,” Holder said. “They threaten the stability of our financial system, and the promise of a competitive marketplace. And their operations are putting far too many American businesses, government institutions, consumers, and citizens at risk.” -- Attorney General Eric Holder
Be careful... Playbook 101: When desiring power, create a fake problem so that you can offer a solution that gives you that power you desire.
- BATFE creates Problem: Too many guns flowing to Mexican Cartels endangering Mexico and U.S. Law Enforcement and Civilians
- Solution: More Restrictive Gun Control Laws
- Power: Reduces 2nd Amendment Rights
Supporting Quote: "We're working on Gun Control "Under the Radar" - Obama to Sara Brady
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392132/Obama-eyeing-gun-control-radar.html
New State of Emergency Declaration of July 25, 2011 seems to give U.S. Law Enforcement the right to seize assets of any Gun Shop suspected of selling to straw purchasers. Note: DoJ has been sending fake straw purchasers around the U.S. for many months now gathering a list of gun stores to close down when the law permits. The ruse has been to trick the gun store clerk into breaking the law unknowingly by carefully worded phrases (purchases that look legal, but in fact may not be).
WildAlaska reported that gun store owners have been "shopped" by undercover DoJ officials trying to purchase guns legal in their state, but illegal in NYC, presenting themselves as hunters who want a gun to use locally. (I can't find the thread, maybe somebody else can post it below). In each case, the gun stores have been smart enough to ask what the "buyer" was going to do with the gun after hunting if he lives in NYC. In all cases, the "buyer" did not want to say, implying that he would take it back to NYC where it is illegal. If sold, such a purchase could under the new State of Emergency cause the gun shop to forfeit their entire business. Any gun store employees unfamiliar with NYC laws could think he was legally selling a designated gun for hunting locally to an out of state purchaser (legal in many states), but illegal if the buyer returns the gun to NYC. So the gun store owner could lose his store and face a felony for the innocent actions of his employee. Under this logic, every employee of every gun store must know and abide by every local law of every community jurisdiction. Probably an impossible task.
Obama issues new "State of Emergency" 2011-07-25 which as I read it, could possibly result in the seizure of all assets of innocent gun store owners whose young employee was "tricked" by a DoJ official into a skillfully worded "straw purchase" (out of state buyer - buying a gun illegal in his community but legal where the gun store is located).
Note: The State of Emergency is very broad and cuts across transnational criminals in many countries, but the Zetas cartels are included and that would likely be the focus of any action against innocent gun store owners.
http://m.whitehouse.gov/the-press-o...uspension-entry-aliens-subject-united-nations
“Today’s criminal organizations are increasingly sophisticated. They know no borders,” Holder said. “They threaten the stability of our financial system, and the promise of a competitive marketplace. And their operations are putting far too many American businesses, government institutions, consumers, and citizens at risk.” -- Attorney General Eric Holder
Be careful... Playbook 101: When desiring power, create a fake problem so that you can offer a solution that gives you that power you desire.
- BATFE creates Problem: Too many guns flowing to Mexican Cartels endangering Mexico and U.S. Law Enforcement and Civilians
- Solution: More Restrictive Gun Control Laws
- Power: Reduces 2nd Amendment Rights
Supporting Quote: "We're working on Gun Control "Under the Radar" - Obama to Sara Brady
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392132/Obama-eyeing-gun-control-radar.html
New State of Emergency Declaration of July 25, 2011 seems to give U.S. Law Enforcement the right to seize assets of any Gun Shop suspected of selling to straw purchasers. Note: DoJ has been sending fake straw purchasers around the U.S. for many months now gathering a list of gun stores to close down when the law permits. The ruse has been to trick the gun store clerk into breaking the law unknowingly by carefully worded phrases (purchases that look legal, but in fact may not be).
WildAlaska reported that gun store owners have been "shopped" by undercover DoJ officials trying to purchase guns legal in their state, but illegal in NYC, presenting themselves as hunters who want a gun to use locally. (I can't find the thread, maybe somebody else can post it below). In each case, the gun stores have been smart enough to ask what the "buyer" was going to do with the gun after hunting if he lives in NYC. In all cases, the "buyer" did not want to say, implying that he would take it back to NYC where it is illegal. If sold, such a purchase could under the new State of Emergency cause the gun shop to forfeit their entire business. Any gun store employees unfamiliar with NYC laws could think he was legally selling a designated gun for hunting locally to an out of state purchaser (legal in many states), but illegal if the buyer returns the gun to NYC. So the gun store owner could lose his store and face a felony for the innocent actions of his employee. Under this logic, every employee of every gun store must know and abide by every local law of every community jurisdiction. Probably an impossible task.
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
The Executive Order you linked to bans the entry into the US of aliens subject to a UN travel ban. How does that support the assertion you made above?
I suspect he meant to link to statements/reports about combating "transnational organized crime."
Strategy: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/def...t_Transnational_Organized_Crime_July_2011.pdf
Factsheet: http://m.whitehouse.gov/the-press-o...strategy-combat-transnational-organized-crime
I can't read either as an attempt to seize all assets of gun store owners (which would also run into constitutional problems). However, there is an interesting statement made at p. 7 of the Strategy (pdf p. 15) on strategies:
I'm not sure this strategy would include running a Gunrunner/Fast and Furious type operation. Just interesting.
Mods: Please delete this entire post if someone has previously posted this link. Congressional staff report for Sen. Grassley and Rep. Issa, dated 26 July, 11:
http://www.politico.com/static/PPM192_atf_report.html
See page 8 for "fast and furious" guns recovered. Yep, some were .50 Barretts.
http://www.politico.com/static/PPM192_atf_report.html
See page 8 for "fast and furious" guns recovered. Yep, some were .50 Barretts.
JustThisGuy
New member
The Executive Order provides for the seizure of assets of individuals, forms, organizations or governments cooperating with the accused trans-national crime organizations.
Under the current DoJ leadership, I can see this order used as cover to seize the assets of Gun Shops where straw purchases sourced guns found to be in the possession of the Zetas Cartel (one of the trans-national crime organizations listed).
HarrySchell
New member
Holder is interested in action against enemies defined by his boss, and it appears if the desired action is plausible under even a tortured interpretation of the law, they will do it and, maybe, say "sorry" if they lose in court. Or ignore the court ruling, as Ray Nagin has done about firearms seized in his city during the Katrina storm. If there are fines to be paid, the taxpayer will pony it up.
And Bush was an "imperial president"...
Bartholomew Roberts quoted and wrote in post 758:
"Who was the black lady who said that everyone was in the pocket of the NRA?"
That would be Rep. Eleanor Norton, the non-voting Congressional Representative for the District of Columbia. She is a member of the House Oversight Committee as well. She is also the same one who helpfully suggested that there should be a law making straw purchasing illegal yesterday.
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Possibly someone should tell the lady that "straw sales" are already illegal, correct me if I'm wrong on this point. Otherwise, re people being in someone else’s pocket, whose pocket is she in?
Re this Obama executive order, I will read it, haven't as yet, however respecting the possibilities mentioned in several posts, it strikes me that in the eyes of many people, if Obama swore that we, in the eastern time zone, North America were in the latter part of July, questions would be raised, the man has so little credibility, with so many people. It seems, by the way, that this situation is the result of significant effort by Mr. Obama.
"Who was the black lady who said that everyone was in the pocket of the NRA?"
That would be Rep. Eleanor Norton, the non-voting Congressional Representative for the District of Columbia. She is a member of the House Oversight Committee as well. She is also the same one who helpfully suggested that there should be a law making straw purchasing illegal yesterday.
---------------------------------
Possibly someone should tell the lady that "straw sales" are already illegal, correct me if I'm wrong on this point. Otherwise, re people being in someone else’s pocket, whose pocket is she in?
Re this Obama executive order, I will read it, haven't as yet, however respecting the possibilities mentioned in several posts, it strikes me that in the eyes of many people, if Obama swore that we, in the eastern time zone, North America were in the latter part of July, questions would be raised, the man has so little credibility, with so many people. It seems, by the way, that this situation is the result of significant effort by Mr. Obama.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
No, Wildalaska did not say that. He said the buyers were private investigators working for NY City Mayor Bloomberg.JustThisGuy said:
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The last round of hearings really highlighted a dichotomy between agents who seem to want all firearms tightly controlled and will lie, obfuscate, and even create situations to assist those ends, and another part of the agency, with what I percieved as forthcoming, honest answers....a part that just seems to want firearms out of the hands of criminals, with minimal restrictions on everyone else.
It's a stark contrast, and an agency infused with enough power to handle the second....doesn't need the type/style of leadership the first seems to be currently providing.
It's a stark contrast, and an agency infused with enough power to handle the second....doesn't need the type/style of leadership the first seems to be currently providing.
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I think we also saw a gulf in the understanding of what should be common BATFE nomenclature and definitions.
Mr. Newell testified that "walking" a gun meant an agency's evidence prop gun got out of their control. I think that would be similar to "marked bills" used in a sting disappearing.
Whereas Mr. Canino testified that he was trained not to let any gun "walk" for any reason. There was no distinction between a BATFE gun and any other gun.
It would seem that either someone was covering their 6, or the training within the BATFE is not consistent.
IMHO, the former seems more likely.
Mr. Newell testified that "walking" a gun meant an agency's evidence prop gun got out of their control. I think that would be similar to "marked bills" used in a sting disappearing.
Whereas Mr. Canino testified that he was trained not to let any gun "walk" for any reason. There was no distinction between a BATFE gun and any other gun.
It would seem that either someone was covering their 6, or the training within the BATFE is not consistent.
IMHO, the former seems more likely.
JustThisGuy
New member
Aguila Blanca said...
No, Wildalaska did not say that. He said the buyers were private investigators working for NY City Mayor Bloomberg.
Aguila, you are correct. Upon reading your post, I remember that it was the Bloomberg posse, not the DoJ.
Please accept my apology for the factual error and thank you for correcting it.
No, Wildalaska did not say that. He said the buyers were private investigators working for NY City Mayor Bloomberg.
Aguila, you are correct. Upon reading your post, I remember that it was the Bloomberg posse, not the DoJ.
Please accept my apology for the factual error and thank you for correcting it.