ATF Project Gunrunner

That "NOT" is there now. sigh. Let me try that again....

We are So Not going to discuss Ruby Ridge/Waco in this Thread!

Should have left it that way to begin with ;) (thanks to everyone that pointed out my mistake).
 
Jack Kelly had a piece in today's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette Forum(post-gazette.com), see it on-line, headlined Government gun runners, the sub head read The administration needs to come clean on gun scandal. This, by the way, is Kelly's second article dealing with this sorry business. The P-G has been anti-gun for as long as one can remember.

In any case, I and others here likely also agree that the administration (Obama’s Administration) needs to come clean on this gun scandal. As to whether they will, I suspect not, at least not unless there is one hellish amount of pressure from media, I think that's unlikely, or the same from Congress, looking at history, equally unlikely, sad to note. Pressure from Congress would, in my opinion, include repeal or serious threats in that direction, of existing federal laws, failing that, major amendments thereto, amendments directed to creating a very short leash for BATFE and DOJ, concerning firearms enforcement.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that the current fiasco will be swept under that well known carpet, hope I'm wrong here, for as some Whitehouse wag offered, words to the effect that "never let a crisis go to waste". In conclusion, it strikes me that there is a crisis here, said crisis revolving about the sorry mess that is Operation Gun Runner and it's misbegotten offspring, Fast and Furious.
 
In any case, I and others here likely also agree that the administration (Obama’s Administration) needs to come clean on this gun scandal.
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They should have done that when the publicity first broke. By waiting and claiming ignorance, they blew their chance at plausible denial.

When something like this comes up, there is no time to waste. You claim you just found out, articulate anger that such a thing could have happened under your nose, blame subordinates for covering it up, then fire some of those subordinates.

It's clean and simple, but it doesn't work if you don't take action quickly. This administration hedged and stammered, and now the evidence is being dredged up in full view of a (somewhat) attentive public. Now they have to blame and fire higher-ranking people, and the damage is worse.
 
Tom Servo wrote in part:

"It's clean and simple, but it doesn't work if you don't take action quickly. This administration hedged and stammered, and now the evidence is being dredged up in full view of a (somewhat) attentive public. Now they have to blame and fire higher-ranking people, and the damage is worse."
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I would hope that the public were more than "somewhat attentive" as you so politely put it, but re this same public, I wonder. One hopes for the best re that sort of thing. However re what Obama et all could have, should have done, in plain English done, what they did was blow it. How badly they will be injured is, at the moment, something one can only speculate on, though as for Obama's statement to anti gunners about doing something but "staying under the radar", if the "something" were meaningful and legitimate, which it isn't, there would be no need to "stay under the radar", for the thing to be done would be able to stand on it's own legs. Given that what the Obama Administration likely seeks to do isn't legitimate, it has no legs on which to stand, ergo this "under the radar” business comes into play.
Who knows, but what there might be limits to how far Chicago Style Politics can go.
 
There is no reason whatsoever (at least from the administration's perspective) to be any more forthcoming than they've been already. The obfuscation and stonewalling are still keeping the wolves from the door, and there is zero possibility of any criminal charges coming out of this against anyone of significance. Sure, they may throw a few low-level BATF underlings under the bus should the need arise, but it will never reach any of the key authorizing figures - and even if it does, Obama will whip out his pardon book and make everything go away. But the odds of even that occurring are infinitesimally low, since it is only his own DOJ that can bring federal charges.

They have obviously calculated (correctly, in my opinion), that any fallout from this will not reach critical mass, and certainly not by the 2012 elections. So they're simply, in effect, going to run out the clock for another sixteen months.
 
When something like this comes up, there is no time to waste. You claim you just found out, articulate anger that such a thing could have happened under your nose, blame subordinates for covering it up, then fire some of those subordinates.
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Nobody can know who'll whistleblow, or what they'll say if pressed.
Nobody knows where those guns are and what they do in the next months.
This mess could easily get way beyond where it is now, and they are likely to wish they had done it your way.
 
Nobody can know who'll whistleblow, or what they'll say if pressed.
Nobody knows where those guns are and what they do in the next months.
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"Yeah, but that was all Lou's fault. I didn't know a thing about it. I'll tell you, the guy was a loose cannon. We've got pictures of him wearing a lampshade at the last Christmas party if you don't believe me.

"So, when I found out. I took action. I fired his butt. His snooty assistant, too. Because that's what I do. Man of action. My wife says so all the time.

"You know, it's really sad that all those guns are out there. Really tragic and stuff, but it's not my fault. I didn't know what Lou and his boys in Phoenix were doing, despite what some anarchist gun nut on the internet says. We took care of it. You should be thanking us. Now, go watch that show where people get voted off the island. That's more fun, right?

"While we're at it, dig up whatever dirt you can find on Issa. That guy's really cheesing me off."
 
chucky, that's all well and good, but Rep. West knows very well that there isn't going to be any special prosecutor named. The DOJ can simply ignore such requests, and Congress can't appoint one without legislation approved by both houses of the Congress and signed by the president. It's just not going to happen - and certainly not before the 2012 elections.
 
Agreed, but nice to know the conservatives will have another issue in 12'. Maybe big enough to open the eyes of 'some' blind followers...and cause significant headaches for MSM producers (ignoring).
 
I started with the Ethics In Govt Act of 1978 and started surfing. There doesn't seem to be any way to investigate the Attorney General. All other offices, including the President, can be investigated by the DOJ's Office of Special Council -- currently held by Patrick Fitzgerald -- but that office answers to the Atty General.

I guess The House is gonna have to impeach Holder. (like that will ever happen since he's black)
 
Even if Holder were to be impeached, to what end? He would just be replaced by another Chicago apparatchik (even if only on an "acting" basis). Nothing would change. Before he leaves office, the POTUS will provide pardons to all involved in the decision-making, and any subsequent investigations will be stopped dead in their tracks.

I think we are underestimating the WH's determination to use whatever means necessary and available to further its agenda here.
 
PJ Media has a piece today pointing out the irony that William Newell (former SAIC of Phoenix ATF) has been the ATF-attache to Mexico since October; but hasn't actually been to Mexico once in the past nine months because ATF officials are concerned he will be arrested by Mexican officials. Newell replaced Darren Gill who is now cooperating with the congressional investigation of Fast and Furious.

Everytime I see this Administration's version of scandal management, I can't decide if they are really that incompetent or if the scandal is so bad that this is the best they can do with the cards they were dealt.
 
BR, Obama and cadre, with all those smarties around, are too clever by half.

What works in the faculty lounge often fails around real people.

How does Newell do his job, if he can't go to Mexico? Or is it cover for another mission?
 
Nobody's lost their minds as far as I can see. They are just doing what any anti-gun ideologue would do if told he/she is free to do pretty much as he/she chooses and that, far from facing prosecution for criminal misconduct, will receive promotions for it. It all makes sense if you get your mind around the concept that DOJ and BATFE feel they are entirely immune from any negative consequences that might arise from criminal, anticonstitutional conduct.
 
csmsss said:
Sure, they may throw a few low-level BATF underlings under the bus should the need arise, but it will never reach any of the key authorizing figures - and even if it does, Obama will whip out his pardon book and make everything go away. But the odds of even that occurring are infinitesimally low, since it is only his own DOJ that can bring federal charges.

They have obviously calculated (correctly, in my opinion), that any fallout from this will not reach critical mass, and certainly not by the 2012 elections. So they're simply, in effect, going to run out the clock for another sixteen months.
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Maybe not, but that tactic might be in their playbook. But here's why I think that's a bad plan...

Melson has already said DOJ is obstructing, not just stonewalling. It'll be interesting to see if his July 13 "public appearance" statements are toned down or if DOJ tries to hold him back from repeating that. In any case, Issa has enough to move for contempt charges against Holder and DOJ.

If DOJ refuses to let Congress use an independent special prosecutor to investigate it'll look even more like obstruction and stonewalling. That'll be fodder during the elections. Especially if Mexico ups the ante by screaming for a full-scale investigation.

The lid is coming off as evidenced by the Honduras angle. This negates any chance of this being "localized" to Phoenix, which in turn implicates much higher pay-grades to approve a national program that works with multiple international tentacles. The implication is that it involves State, DHS via Customs and perhaps the USCG along with the FBI.

The Tampa-Honduras program netted a "big fish" in September 2010, so it seems unlikely Holder and/or Asst. A.G. Lanny Breuer can claim "ignorance" of the program or its methods. Especially in light of their attempt to garner lots of media attention on it.

There are too many leaks in the ship to keep trying to tow it to shallower 2012 waters. There's the risk of an unseen torpedo from another whistleblower or another high-profile shooting with a Fast & Furious gun on our side of the border.
 
What! Operation Castaway... Honduras.... Guns to MS-13?

Field Offices at Tampa? Houston? and Phoenix? involved in a national program?

Somebody has lost their mind at the ATF.
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Nope. I'd wager it was several somebodies (or more), and it was not their minds that they lost, but their souls that they sold.
 
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