ATF Project Gunrunner

Great article Glenn:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58532.html


“Even the name of the organization, it’s from the black-and-white movie era,” said Jim Kessler of Third Way, a centrist Democratic group. “I don’t think it should exist. The investigations should be subsumed within the FBI, and the licensing could be done by Treasury, which is a tax-collecting agency.”
 
Interesting article, indeed.

“I don’t see them merging with another agency,” said Ronnie Carter, another former ATF official. “Whatever agency you merge them with is going to have the same problems. … A lot of it is weakness in the law. ATF can do the job. They just have to be allowed to do it.”
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Translation: We don't like the existing laws, so we make them up as we go along.
 
Despite the talk of folding ATF into the FBI, gun control advocates also said they suspect that the NRA and pro-gun lawmakers actually prefer a hobbled ATF to the possibility of a forceful director or vigorous enforcement of gun laws by the FBI.
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At least the FBI has some idea of restraint and discipline.
 
Translation: We don't like the existing laws, so we make them up as we go along.
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Ya pretty much.

I wouldn't expect Ronnie Carter - former ATF to be in touch with reality, and I wouldn't expect anything he says to be accurate.

The problem is not some supposed weakness in the law - what a meaningless nonsensical statement.

The problem with the BATFE is that it is trying to justify it's own existence by fabricating a threat where no threat exists. It is a very expensive solution to a non-existent problem.

It is led by a group of people who are willing to whore the agency out for political purposes.

I think the top tiers of people who lead the FBI are much more tuned into the core mission of the FBI and they are experienced enough and smart enough to stick to enforcing the law, guarding the reputation of the bureau and not allowing it to be used as a tool in ideological debates between parties. If a president – any president went to the FBI and said – I want you to do this investigation that really paints abortion clinic doctors in a bad light so we can hopefully get some laws changed in this country – he would get pushback, if a president went to the FBI and said – I want you to do this investigation that really paints abortion clinic protesters in a bad light so we can change some laws in this country – likewise he would get pushback. Even if they have an idiotic director, the rest of the bureau is focused on the FBIs mission and value its reputation.

The BATFE isn’t like that. The top levels of BATFE whored the agency out in a myopic effort to curry favor with the administration and anti-gun politicians.

I would argue that we can’t afford an agency – any agency to lack integrity to this degree.

I doubt the NRA is secretly in favor of keeping the BATFE around because it serves their purposes to have some sort of paper tiger of an agency in charge of federal firarms regulations.

The NRA has always supported the military and law enforcement in this country, and is completely and strongly in favor of keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals. If the BATFE had the same view they would receive the full support of the NRA.
 
If the BATFE had the same view they would receive the full support of the NRA.
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If the BATFE had that view they would have been shut down long ago, as a needless agency that could be redacted, to give the appearance of an administration "for the people" when in effect it would have outlived it's usefullness to said administration's agenda...
 
Ruby Ridge involved ATF after the Marshals concluded their investigation, and before the FBI came in. ATF did not notify FBI that they had been trying to recruit Randy Weaver as a CI.

Waco was initiated by ATF.

So what was your point, aaalaska?
 
The "weak" straw buyer laws say that a straw buyer can go to prison for ten years and be fined $250,000. That's more than a wrist slap!

The complaints that straw buyers get a wrist slap are not due to weakness in the law, but due to the nature of our justice system. Prosecutors want to threaten straw buyers with a serious prison term and a serious fine? OK, they can already do that, in my opinion.

The problem is, they have to threaten the straw buyer with what a big, bad JURY might do to them. Keeping in mind that a straw buyer must be someone with little, if any, criminal record, what are the odds of that happening? No jury is going to put a first offender away for ten years and fine them a quarter million dollars. If we made the maximum penalty 50 years and ten million, no jury would do that to a first offender either.

A jury is just never going to be as threatening as the criminals that a straw buyer is being asked to finger.
 
If taxes were increased just a little bit more on tobacco growers the government could incent people to produce and smuggle cigarettes illegally, (it's happening now to a small degree anyway, so we're very close to that price point as it is).

Once we as a society decide to recreate the prohibition experiment (this time with tobacco), the Bureau of alcohol, TOBACCO, firearms and explosives can prove their worth and keep themselves busy fighting the evil tobacco smugglers threatening our society. I can hear it now “The tobacco cartels are trying to turn our teens into nicotine addicts and are bringing about the collapse of our health care system as hospitals strain under the burden of providing lung cancer patients with expensive treatments.”

It may sound far fetched but it’s not that far off from what BATFE has tried to do with gun ownership. They want more firearms crimes to chase down so they manipulate public perception in an attempt to pass laws that criminalize gun ownership, and thus increase the perceived need for a BATFE.
 
Glenn said:
www.politico.com has a column indicating that the ATF might be doomed.

I am all for ending the reign of the ATF. They are a pack of thugs with badges. However, as Mike Vanderboegh (one of the fellows who broke this story) has pointed out, ending the ATF will be a bone the Obama administration will want to toss to the rabid gun nuts. It won't stop the enforcement of more than 20,000 gun laws that exist. It could give greater power and less accountability to another alphabet soup agency. It is a "cure" that may turn out to be ever worse than the disease.

...and Tom Servo, if you consider the siege and fire on day 53 at The Branch Davidian to be a demonstration of "FBI restraint", I shudder to think what your idea of lack of restraint would be.

I believe a special prosecutor needs to be assigned to this matter. A full investigation followed by criminal prosecutions of all parties involved including, ATF, DoJ (Holder and company), State (St. Hillary), DEA, IRS, HSA (Janet Napolitano). Jail time for guilty parties and revocation of pensions would really get some attention. Maybe even impeachment proceedings against the Obama-messiah.
 
I think a prison should be built to house the federal employees and politicians involved in this farce for the rest of their lives. Not expecting an invite to the groundreaking ceremony any time soon, if ever. The more I read, the harder it is to believe that they are committing these crimes in the name of law enforcement. The FFL's involved in this operation are in a no-win situation and I have no doubt that they are indeed coerced and threatened. This operation is stranger than anything most of us could ever make up. It's obvious that the folks at the top operate under some alternative version of reality. There's no other explanation that makes sense to me.
 
Do the states, for instance Arizona and now Florida, not have any recourse whatsoever with regard to the United States government releasing weapons into thier state thru the use of straw purchasers?(which I assume to be a felony)

Is it really such a free-for-all and the state can't prosecute anyone?
 
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I'm stocking up on popcorn for the day Eric Holder testifies before Congress.
Should be a lot of fun to see him receive an atomic wedgie on TV.

With the new "leak" about Tampa Florida and Honduras, trying to contain this to the ATF alone or to just within DOJ becomes much harder. If it links in with the DHS alphabet soup agencies I think it'll bust the administration wide open.

re: ATF's demise.
Yeah, the NRA wants to keep BATFE around. "Better the devil you know..." logic. Merge it with DHS and it'll get buried under "secret" stamps because DHS fights terrorists, so why should we tell any of our strategies? The FBI doesn't want the job either.

It may be too late to save the agency. Bringing in an anti-gun idealogue like Traver is like putting David Duke or George Wallace in charge of the DOJ civil-rights division. Requiring congressional approval of the next director means he's definitely going to be a political critter. What is needed right now is a director who is middle-road or pro-gun-rights (even slightly) that will force the agency to adhere to "best practices" in its methods and procedures.

Re: "Toothless" or weak gun laws
Most of these claims are simply pig crap. When the ATF agents tell us that the U.S. Attorneys in their areas fail/refuse to file charges in straw-buy or illegal possession cases, then the U.S. Attorney's office is the target for improvement, not more laws. A 10-year and/or $250,000 fine sounds like a serious penalty for straw-buyers to my ears.
 
alloy said:
Do the states, for instance Arizona and now Florida, not have any recourse whatsoever with regard to the United States government releasing weapons into thier state thru the use of straw purchasers?(which I assume to be a felony)

Is it really such a free-for-all and the state can't prosecute anyone?
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No recourse...unless their own state statues mimick Federal law. Check the state's website (usually under their atty general's site) for their statutes. Look for "firearms laws" or "weapons laws" and do a search on "transfer" or "purchase". You'll find that some states have no restrictions on how transfers are done (the Feds cover that)...but may still prohibit felons etc from possessing guns.
 
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