ATF Project Gunrunner

The UN treaty has been discussed before. Please search on the topic as it is not relevant to the F and F thread. We also don't need a new thread on the treaty.
 
Luger_carbine:

I suspect your comments in what might have been your last post, #2476regarding the origin, the impetus and the blame for the screw-up that is and was Operation F & F are essentially on the mark. Problem is in so proving, for if allegations were proven, a bunch of people would be going to jail.

As to how many of them would be in line for presidential pardons, that might be the question of the year. I wonder also as to the following. Can the president pardon himself?
 
I wonder also as to the following. Can the president pardon himself?
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Article II Section 2 of the Constitution states that the President "shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment." Emphasis Added. President Ford set the precedent that pardons can be granted even if the recipient of the pardon has not yet been convicted, of even charged, with a crime, so the only way a President might be able to pardon himself would have to proactively pardon himself for crimes that he's not yet been charged with (the President cannot be charged with a crime while still in office). However, if impeachment proceedings were brought before the President pardoned himself, then his only option would be to convince the Vice President to pardon him upon taking office as was most likely the case with President Nixon and then-Vice President Ford.

All this being said, the chances of President Obama pardoning himself for F&F are, IMHO, extremely small. First, I find it doubtful that there is enough evidence to prove that the President was involved in or had direct knowledge of F&F. Secondly, pardoning himself would be, in effect, an admission of guilt that would be, at the very least, politically damaging in the extreme. Finally, the President pardoning himself is a political stunt that's never even been attempted before and may not even fly in the first place (I have a feeling that if it did, Nixon would've probably proactively pardoned himself before leaving office).
 
It won't come to trial. The perps will never be caught. At least some are buried already, I guess. The trial also is about murder. The perps can be tied to the weapons, maybe, without a lot of discussion or any comebacks as to how they got them. The focus will have to be on what they did with the weapons.

This means nothing. It's a herring, a smelly red one.
 
The focus will have to be on what they did with the weapons.
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At least two Fast and Furious guns were found at the scene of Terrys murder. By some accounts there were three, including an SKS that came from another area.

Some e-mails were obtained by CBS. One of those e-mails reported four perps in custody:

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/att12.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody

From a tape given to CBS:

“Agent: Well there was two.

Dealer: There's three weapons.


Agent: There's three weapons.


Dealer: I know that.


Agent: And yes, there's serial numbers for all three.


Dealer: That's correct.


Agent: Two of them came from this store.


Dealer: I understand that.


Agent: There's an SKS that I don't think came from.... Dallas or Texas or something like that.


Dealer: I know. talking about the AK's


Agent: The two AK's came from this store.


Dealer: I know that.


Agent: Ok.


Dealer: I did the Goddamned trace


Agent: Third weapon is the SKS has nothing to do with it.


Dealer: That didn't come from me.


Agent: No and there is that's my knowledge. and I spoke to someone who would know those are the only ones they have. So this is the agent who's working the case, all I can go by is what she told me.
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Interesting CNN / Orc Intl poll on Holder / F&F & Executive Privledge

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/07/09/rel6d.pdf

Holder's favorable rating actually went up from 2009, but his unfavorable rating went up by a greater margin.

The poll question that stands out for me:

In the congressional investigation of Operation Fast and Furious, in your view, should President Obama and his aides continue to invoke executive privilege to protect the White House decision making process, or should they drop the claim of executive privilege and answer all questions being investigated?
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Answer all questions = 69%

It always comes down to that doesn't it? If everything is as they say it is and there is nothing to hide then why not just turn over the documents?
 
^^^^ Isn't tthat like saying, "if you have nothing to hide, why can't I search your car?"
If I have nothing to hide, I can still invoke my rights. In this case it's a privilage, but the same idea.

Rick
 
^^^^ Isn't tthat like saying, "if you have nothing to hide, why can't I search your car?" If I have nothing to hide, I can still invoke my rights. In this case it's a privilage, but the same idea.
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Respectfully, I disagree. Exercising a right is not the same idea as invoking privilege.

We all have the same rights under the constitution. Only POTUS can invoke Executive Privilege. And since POTUS has also stated publicly that he had no knowledge of F&F, it appears that he is hiding the work of others, not himself. Not what privilege was supposed to do, is it?
 
Isn't tthat like saying, "if you have nothing to hide, why can't I search your car?"
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It's different on another point also - and that is one of scope.

Congress isn't asking for access to rumage around in all of DOJ's files and through their entire e-mail system, they are asking for a specific set of documents, a finite number and within a certain date range.
 
AG Holder claimed that they had turned over relevant documents... there is this whole spin doctoring of whether DOJ cooperated or not...

It would have helped their PR cause if more docs had been turned over. When they talk about the 7,600 documents they turned over - they make it sound like it was a herculean effort to produce an encyclopedic trove of documents. They're doing the best they can with it but it's lipstick on a pig considering the number of documents requested.

IMO, the bulk of the documents requested contain damaging evidence. If DOJ could have turned over any more documents to bolster their claim of cooperation - they certainly would have.
 
I couldn't remember how many documents congress requested so I was Googling it, and this is the first time that the Fast & Furious site came up in my search.

I don't know how Google ranks their searches, but it seems to me that the site is moving up in the rankings for where it appears in a search.

I just typed "Fast and Furious documents" and the website was the third entry listed.
 
DOJ has turned over 7600 instruments to the Oversight Committee, some so heavily redacted (entire pages blacked out) that even Jon Stewart on the Daily Show was making jokes about it.

At the same time, DOJ turned over 80000 documents to the DOJ IG. DOJ has claimed they have provided all relevant documents to Congress but have repeatedly failed to account for this discrepancy or even turn over a privilege log (when you claim a privilege not to turn over documents in a court room, you must identify via a short description what documents you are withholding and the legal privilege you are claiming protects them).
 
The feds recently indicted 5 in the murder of Brian Terry and are looking for 4 of them. What I do not understand is that they originally arrested at least 4 on the spot and were looking for 1 more so what did they do let them go at some point? I'm not understanding what's going on. Are these indicments for some other charges?

http://borderissues.us/2010/12/16/fifth-bandit-apprehended-in-border-patrol-agents-death/

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRang...trol-agent-killed-in-peck-canyon-arrests-made

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/fou...ursued-connection-killing-border-patrol-agent
 
Bartholomew Roberts:

Re your comments in post # 2496, the smell of rotten fish, coming from DOJ grows stronger by the second.
 
What I do not understand is that they originally arrested at least 4 on the spot and were looking for 1 more so what did they do let them go at some point?
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+1
i had the same question. Wonder what the FBI did with the third gun; an SKS?
 
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