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ATF Project Gunrunner
- Thread starter Al Norris
- Start date
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Issa stated publicly today that he believes that the POTUS was not involved at all in the operation or cover up.
I read an interview with Issa in The Hill where he stated that he did not have any evidence the White House was involved in the cover up. Are you saying that Issa said he does not believe the White House is involved? Because "I can't prove it" and "I don't believe it" are two different statements.
I've been reading some interesting commentary from liberal websites who appear to believe that claiming executive privilege is a mistake. The Daily Show lampooned the Administration's decision, the New York Times even editorialized against it, and Rep. Elijah Cummings, who hasn't been all that helpful in actually investigating was telling The Hill that "Congress has a duty to get those documents from Holder."
Issa appears confident he has the votes (bipartisan even) to support the contempt citation on the House floor.
Political loyalty is everything, if the tables were turned; the current majority party in the house would be defending their AG.
The Valerie Plame/Scooter Libby investigation took place with a Republican House and Senate and a Republican President. I think right now the Administration is enjoying the benefit of widespread ignorance about Fast and Furious by the American public. However, their decision to claim executive privilege is bringing that to the public's attention - and once the public begins to understand the American government was giving guns to Mexican drug cartels, I think you will see Democratic Represenatatives and Senators press for investigation much like what happened with Plame.
Issa appears confident he has the votes (bipartisan even) to support the contempt citation on the House floor.
But that doesn't get Rep. Issa the documents, does it? Since the Executive Privilege card has been played, another hurdle must be cleared. At least what I've read here points that way.
I believe the President invoking Executive Privilege has moved this from a back burner issue that was destined to be a almost non-issue to being the new "Watergate".
The invoking of the Privilege almost certainly means than both Mr. Holder and Mr. Obama had knowledge of the operation as that as I understand it is a requirement of invoking executive privilege... So basically they are both admitting on some level that they have lied in previous statements that they knew nothing about the operation while it was in active operation.
This is now a issue that has suddenly gained legs and could potentially result in impeachment... If factually it is now proven the administration did know about this operation and allowed to continue to operate then we need to be gravely concerned... It would mean this administration did place lives on both sides of the border as being less important than achieving encroachments on the 2A. It would mean the administration felt gun control was more important than protecting life.
The invoking of the Privilege almost certainly means than both Mr. Holder and Mr. Obama had knowledge of the operation as that as I understand it is a requirement of invoking executive privilege... So basically they are both admitting on some level that they have lied in previous statements that they knew nothing about the operation while it was in active operation.
This is now a issue that has suddenly gained legs and could potentially result in impeachment... If factually it is now proven the administration did know about this operation and allowed to continue to operate then we need to be gravely concerned... It would mean this administration did place lives on both sides of the border as being less important than achieving encroachments on the 2A. It would mean the administration felt gun control was more important than protecting life.
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jimpeel And notice how Pelosi tried to deflect the case against Holder by stating he was being targeted because he is against those who want to have "voter suppression".
They are running for the tall grass.
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Jim's closing might be a most reasonable estimate of the situation.
They are running for the tall grass.
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Jim's closing might be a most reasonable estimate of the situation.
jimpeel noted:
Bill Maher had Rachel Maddow and Nick Gillespie on his show where Maher admitted he didn't know anything about F&F until this week. Talk about being out of touch.
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Re Mr. Maher having been included amongst those described as "opinion leaders", correct me if I'm wrong here, one wonders as to where he has been hiding, re his "not knowing anything about F & F until this week".
Bill Maher had Rachel Maddow and Nick Gillespie on his show where Maher admitted he didn't know anything about F&F until this week. Talk about being out of touch.
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Re Mr. Maher having been included amongst those described as "opinion leaders", correct me if I'm wrong here, one wonders as to where he has been hiding, re his "not knowing anything about F & F until this week".
Perhaps the AG's office?Re Mr. Maher having been included amongst those described as "opinion leaders", correct me if I'm wrong here, one wonders as to where he has been hiding, re his "not knowing anything about F & F until this week".
I was watching CNN yesterday, when they had some lady (missed her name) ranting about how the AG had already turned over all the documents concerned with the running of F&F. Talk about wanting to scream at the TV!
I was watching CNN yesterday, when they had some lady (missed her name) ranting about how the AG had already turned over all the documents concerned with the running of F&F. Talk about wanting to scream at the TV!
This seems to be yet another talking point which attempts to create the "witch hunt" scenario that the dems would so love to have the American public buy into. Elijah Cummings made similar statements, saying that all of the documents regarding the operation and who was involved had been given to Issa, but the documents Issa wants deal with the communications after the program had already ended. This seems to be an attempt to say, "Congress already knows everything that happened during Fast and Furious, but now they are trying to politically damage Holder and Obama by searching for any little tidbit of "gotcha politics" in the communications between DOJ officials, and maybe the White House, regarding the program, but after the fact".
I'm not sure that will be successful, but it may help organizations such as the Huffington Post and other media outlets supporting Obama which need talking points on this for the media circus which is starting to develop.
It's a long read, but is very informative as to the what, how and why of F&F: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/303808/fast-and-furious-and-ocdetf-andrew-c-mccarthy
From the National Review article:
Issa says Fast and Furious was the brainchild of the career bureaucrats in the Phoenix office of the BATFE. They sold the program to the US attorney for AZ, Dennis Burke and up the BATFE chain. It makes sense that Fast and Furious originated in the Phoenix office: Newell, the SAC of the Phoenix office had walked guns into Mexico under Wide Receiver.
See Issas memo to his committee dated 3 May, 2012, page 4:
Dennis Burke had long been a subordinate of Napolitano. Theres a good chance Napolitano knew about F&F: Good chance Holder knew about F&F. Proving it may be another matter.
Why go through all of this detail? Because the Obama administration has offered a palpably false narrative about Fast and Furious. It is this: Acting on their own, recklessly irresponsible ATF agents in Arizona — under the ostensible direction of the local U.S. attorney, who was actually asleep at the switch — dreamed up the Fast and Furious investigation, with its rogue “gunwalking” tactic.
Issa says Fast and Furious was the brainchild of the career bureaucrats in the Phoenix office of the BATFE. They sold the program to the US attorney for AZ, Dennis Burke and up the BATFE chain. It makes sense that Fast and Furious originated in the Phoenix office: Newell, the SAC of the Phoenix office had walked guns into Mexico under Wide Receiver.
See Issas memo to his committee dated 3 May, 2012, page 4:
Having been encouraged to devise grander strategies to stop the transfers
of weapons to Mexican drug cartels, the Phoenix based agents devised a strategy that went beyond simple arrests or weapons confiscations. They would allow the U.S.-based associates of a Mexican drug cartel to continue acquiring firearms uninterrupted. In doing so, they hoped the weapons, after they were recovered at crime scenes in Mexico, could be traced and linked to cartel operatives including possible high-level financiers, suppliers, and possibly even king-pins.
Dennis Burke had long been a subordinate of Napolitano. Theres a good chance Napolitano knew about F&F: Good chance Holder knew about F&F. Proving it may be another matter.
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The Valerie Plame/Scooter Libby investigation took place with a Republican House and Senate and a Republican President.
Yes.
The last congressional investigation took place with a Democrat house and senate: Bush took executive privilege.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6031574&page=1
October 14, 2008
President Bush sidetracked a congressional probe by wrongly invoking executive privilege, according to a draft bipartisan congressional report released today.
This June, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee served a subpoena to the Justice Department for reports of interviews between FBI agents and Bush and Cheney.
Richard Artmitage later fessed up to burning Valerie Plame:
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-1981433.html
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
The last congressional investigation took place with a Democrat house and senate: Bush took executive privilege.
Someone pointed out that they believed that party loyalty was a bigger factor in these investigations. As contrary evidence I was pointing out that the Plame investigation was begun by a Republican Congress against a Republican President.
In the example you refer to, the subpoena wasn't issued until June 2007, after the Democrats had the House and Senate. The subpoena sought an interview of the Special Prosecutor of VP Cheney in an attempt to prove the Plame scandal went higher than Scooter Libby. Bush claimed Executive Privilege to block this. I am not sure if Congress ever received the transcript; but a watchdog group called CREW sued the U.S. to release it, and ironically the Obama Administration DOJ took the position that the transcript was protected by Executive Privilege (which again goes to show that it isn't all about political loyalty).
They lost that fight though and the transcript was released. For that matter, the Bush Administration ended up caving on most of the Executive Privilege assertions it did make as far as I can find - Karl Rove did testify to Congress (post election) as did Miers and Mukasey. So I would say that bodes well for the chances of the Oversight Committee to get the documents it wants to see.
Richard Artmitage later fessed up to burning Valerie Plame
Off topic; but according to Michael Isikoff's book on the subject, Armitage didn't know Plame was a covert operative - thus the reason he wasn't prosecuted by Fitzgerald.
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So I would say that bodes well for the chances of the Oversight Committee to get the documents it wants to see.
Methinks you are correct. In most cases where executive privilege is claimed and a contempt citation issued, a deal is made to produce the documents.
Even though he does so in a humorous way, even Jon Stewart gets it when it comes to F&F.
VIDEO LINK
So a comedian gets it while others who claim to be serious political analysts are only learning of this scandalous debacle this week; and then the likes of Nancy Pelosi try to spin the contempt citation into a racist rant against Republicans so she can deflect the story away from those who are just beginning to understand its importance.
<sigh>
They will even try to cover up and mitigate the murder of a border patrol agent in their quest to retain power.
VIDEO LINK
So a comedian gets it while others who claim to be serious political analysts are only learning of this scandalous debacle this week; and then the likes of Nancy Pelosi try to spin the contempt citation into a racist rant against Republicans so she can deflect the story away from those who are just beginning to understand its importance.
<sigh>
They will even try to cover up and mitigate the murder of a border patrol agent in their quest to retain power.
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Apparently, way back in Summer 2011 when Ken Melson decided to testify on his own, he testified that after reading the wiretap affidavits, he realized that the DOJ letter to Congress was wrong and sent an email to "senior DOJ officials" warning them to back off the initial response to Sen. Grassley. DOJ did not retract the letter until December 2011.
This is one of the emails Congress has requested that has not been provided by DOJ yet. It sounds like the Oversight Committee may have given Holder enough rope to wind it around his neck a few times.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/25/a...gun-and-holder-admitted-obama-cant-shield-it/
This is one of the emails Congress has requested that has not been provided by DOJ yet. It sounds like the Oversight Committee may have given Holder enough rope to wind it around his neck a few times.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/25/a...gun-and-holder-admitted-obama-cant-shield-it/
This is one of the emails Congress has requested that has not been provided by DOJ yet. It sounds like the Oversight Committee may have given Holder enough rope to wind it around his neck a few times.
Theres also the lie about the source of guns used in Brian Terrys murder. Its significant that federal prosecutor Burke lied to the family of Brian Terry about the source of those guns. The BATFE in Phoenix and federal prosecutor Burke knew where those guns came from within hours of Terrys murder. Why did they lie? Was the decision to lie made at Main Justice? We shall see-maybe.
There is controversy over a third gun found at the murder scene, an SKS. FBI director Mueller says there was no third gun. A recorded conversation between a BAFTE agent and a gun dealer point to a different conclusion. From a tape made available to CBS:
In the following secret conversation made public between an ATF agent and a local gun store proprietor who was cooperating with the agency in its Fast and Furious operation, it is clear that something afoul occurred regarding the 3rd gun:
Agent: Well there was two.
Dealer: There's three weapons.
Agent: There's three weapons.
Dealer: I know that.
Agent: And yes, there's serial numbers for all three.
Dealer: That's correct.
Agent: Two of them came from this store.
Dealer: I understand that.
Agent: There's an SKS that I don't think came from.... Dallas or Texas or something like that.
Dealer: I know. talking about the AK's
Agent: The two AK's came from this store.
Dealer: I know that.
Agent: Ok.
Dealer: I did the Goddamned trace
Agent: Third weapon is the SKS has nothing to do with it.
Dealer: That didn't come from me.
Agent: No and there is that's my knowledge. and I spoke to someone who would know those are the only ones they have. So this is the agent who's working the case, all I can go by is what she told me.
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Luger_carbine
New member
I wonder why the Zapata case isn't getting traction, and it doesn't get the media attention that Brian Terry's murder garnered.
Maybe because it happened in Mexico, the American public doesn't have as strong a reaction to it?
Or maybe they think that because it happened in Mexico it's irrelevant where the murderers got their weapons or where the weapons originated?
Or maybe the Jaime Xapata murder gets overshadowed in the media by the congressional hearings and the contempt proceedings. But even with members of congress - they'll mention Brian Terry but never mention Jaime Zapata
Maybe because it happened in Mexico, the American public doesn't have as strong a reaction to it?
Or maybe they think that because it happened in Mexico it's irrelevant where the murderers got their weapons or where the weapons originated?
Or maybe the Jaime Xapata murder gets overshadowed in the media by the congressional hearings and the contempt proceedings. But even with members of congress - they'll mention Brian Terry but never mention Jaime Zapata
Maybe because it happened in Mexico, the American public doesn't have as strong a reaction to it?
In certain circles the deaths are only meaningful when they can be used to push legislation. Law enforcement deaths are down 50% from last year and so they are not getting much attention these days.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
The House has scheduled the floor vote on for contempt for this Thursday.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/reports-holder-contempt-vote-held-thursday/story?id=16648169
The NRA is saying this will be a graded vote - meaning it is unlikely a Rep will keep their A+ rating if they decline to vote for the contempt motion.
http://www.examiner.com/article/nra-to-score-vote-on-holder-contempt-of-congress
Given that there is already a solid majority of NRA A-rated Representatives in this Congress, it looks like the NRA will either see a lot of defections or Holder is going to be held in contempt of Congress.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/reports-holder-contempt-vote-held-thursday/story?id=16648169
The NRA is saying this will be a graded vote - meaning it is unlikely a Rep will keep their A+ rating if they decline to vote for the contempt motion.
http://www.examiner.com/article/nra-to-score-vote-on-holder-contempt-of-congress
Given that there is already a solid majority of NRA A-rated Representatives in this Congress, it looks like the NRA will either see a lot of defections or Holder is going to be held in contempt of Congress.
Luger_carbine
New member
An NRA graded vote is going to give Holder supporters more cover to say that there is no substance to F&F - it's merely election year politics.
But I think the NRA has to do this.
For one thing it sends a strong messgage (hopefully) to future administrations that if the party in power tries to use a government agency to do something as insidious as manipulate public opinion on a Second Amendment issue - the NRA will be there to sound the alarm and take up the fight.
But I think the NRA has to do this.
For one thing it sends a strong messgage (hopefully) to future administrations that if the party in power tries to use a government agency to do something as insidious as manipulate public opinion on a Second Amendment issue - the NRA will be there to sound the alarm and take up the fight.