ATF Project Gunrunner

Re the antics of DOJ head AG Holder, the president's declaration of Executive Privilege, the antics of the BATFE, and also referencing a discussion on Essential Public Radio, possibly heard by some, the following is a copy of my Letter To The Editor of one of my local papers, that being The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. My thoughts/comments might be of interest to some here. It is unlikely that the P-G will publish my letter, their quota system being one reason. The following was written 21 June.

Editor:

Re the above referenced, in no particular order, the thoughts follow:

1. Respecting claims by the BATFE that Operation Fast & Furious was intended to pinpoint "drug cartel kingpins" ridiculous is an appropriate description, given that the BATFE had no such capabilities. There was no way this agency could possibly track the "walked guns" to drug cartel kingpins.

2. As to guns themselves, the world is awash with real AK-47's, as opposed to the pale imitations thereof sold in this country, by federally licensed gun dealers. Real AK-47's have selective fire capability, the defining characteristic of a class of arms described as "assault rifles". The guns commercially sold in this country lack selective fire capability, being simply semi-automatic rifles, a type of arm manufactured and sold in this country since prior to The First World War, Interestingly media, re it's frequent references to "assault rifles" and "assault weapons" is strangely "fast and loose" with technical terminology, one wonders why.

3. Given existing world conditions, combined with the fact that the Mexican Drug Cartel has more cash than it knows what to do with, they could easily obtain virtually any type of light or heavy automatic firearms they desired, plus Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPG's), by the plane load, possibly even by the shipload, which raises the following question. Why would they bother arranging the purchase, in dribs and drabs, of pale imitations of guns the world is literally awash in? The answer is that, being reasonably intelligent people, they wouldn't. On the other hand, a runaway government agency, the BATFE, at the behest of a historically anti gun president and attorney general would. Via this Operation Fast & Furious, which Obama et al are trying to paper over, they did.

4. With his declaration of Executive Privilege, the president tries to provide political cover to his beleaguered friend, and Attorney General Eric Holder Jr. Combined with his other problems, the economy, continued high levels of unemployment/underemployment, the lack of prosecution of banking and Wall Street criminals, yes there are a few exceptions here, this Executive Privilege business might turn out to be one of his dumber mover. Additionally, re his references to declarations of Executive Privilege by other presidents, Nixon's declaration didn't hold water, other presidents have declared Executive Privilege. Notwithstanding the perhaps questionable nature of previous declarations, none of them involved such blatant criminality as is involved here. Remember that Operation Fast & Furious violated both U.S. and Mexican law, something that President Obama might prefer not to be reminded of.
 
I wonder how many decent ,law abiding citizens who fell in the disfavor of the drug cartels have been killed by the 2000 lost weapons.

I heard on the radio just this past Friday an estimated 200 Mexican civilians (that in no way shape or form were related to the drug cartels) lost their lives because of the guns allowed to enter their country from the USA. I have no idea how they came up with that number, but it was reported as such.

If I was President of Mexico, I would be demanding an explanation from the USA. I wouldn’t get one I’m sure, but I’d still be asking.
 
2. As to guns themselves, the world is awash with real AK-47's, as opposed to the pale imitations thereof sold in this country, by federally licensed gun dealers. Real AK-47's have selective fire capability, the defining characteristic of a class of arms described as "assault rifles". The guns commercially sold in this country lack selective fire capability, being simply semi-automatic rifles, a type of arm manufactured and sold in this country since prior to The First World War, Interestingly media, re it's frequent references to "assault rifles" and "assault weapons" is strangely "fast and loose" with technical terminology, one wonders why.

3. Given existing world conditions, combined with the fact that the Mexican Drug Cartel has more cash than it knows what to do with, they could easily obtain virtually any type of light or heavy automatic firearms they desired, plus Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPG's), by the plane load, possibly even by the shipload, which raises the following question. Why would they bother arranging the purchase, in dribs and drabs, of pale imitations of guns the world is literally awash in? The answer is that, being reasonably intelligent people, they wouldn't. On the other hand, a runaway government agency, the BATFE, at the behest of a historically anti gun president and attorney general would. Via this Operation Fast & Furious, which Obama et al are trying to paper over, they did.

Those are pretty weak arguments. Not all drug gangs are equal and they are constantly warring with each other. It would make a lot of sense for one gang to be able to buy a ship load of guns from Venezuela while another would be forced to pay a premium for SA guns from the US. I have never even heard of a conflict where both sides held exactly the same armament, used the same supply chain, etc. much less a gang war.
 
MTT TL:

You characterized paragraphs 2 & 3 of my letter as "pretty weak arguments". You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I submit though, that your opinion is incorrect.
 
Two issues have been raised this past week which need some thought:

1) How could Holder stop an operation in December when he testified that he did not know about it until the following March.

2) A former Secret Service Agent, currently running for Congress, told FOX news that some of the Gun Runner weapons ended up in New York. (Apparently, NY tracks the origin of ceased guns) The candidate stated that his contacts in the BATF report that the flow of illegal guns to NY changed from the South East Corridor (assume) VA to Arizona during that Gun Runner was Active.

I speculate that, if the Candidate is correct, the DOJ has recognized this fact and that guns they allowed to walk ended up being used in crimes in the US. The Body count could go from two LEOs to a bunch of innocent citizens.
 
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It is my understanding that "Project GunRunner" is different than Operation "Wide Receiver" and operation "Fast and Furious" was yet another iteration with more lax controls. Gun running is different than gun walking according to the testimony of Janet Napolitano as I recall.
 
The Body count could go from two LEOs to a bunch of innocent citizens.
There have already been reports of Fast & Furious guns being tied to crimes in Arizona. They didn't just get loose in Mexico, and it's going to be years before we find out where they all ended up.

The drug cartels can get all the full auto weapons they want
While it's much easier to pilfer them than it is here, it's not as if they're floating around on every streetcorner. They'll take what they can get.

I will remind everyone yet again that this thread is limited to discussion of Fast & Furious. General critiques of the administration are not acceptable, and pure politics falls outside the forum rules.
 
IIRC, ops analogous to F+F were also run in TX and FL, to get weapons across the border and supposedly to Honduras. An op has been discussed here out of Indiana that was feeding weapons to gangs to the north...IL. It is hardly surprising that some weapons would end up in NYC. Consider the goal, which is outrageous violence and a crisis to be resolved by a crackdown by Obama and cadre.

One of Eric Holder's first burps as AG was to discuss how he wanted to pass a new AWB. This predates the "90% of cartel guns are US" meme by half a year, I think.

As to whether the cartels are interested in semi-auto AR's and AK's or prefer "the real thing", the facts are that known prohibited persons were allowed by ATF to buy firearms as straw buyers (felony, for the approver and the buyer). Such firearms were handed off to others or directly transported across a national border (more felonies) with the conscious inaction of the authorities who could have and by law should have interdicted such transfers (more felonies).

Holder aided and abetted multiple felonies by people under his supervision, even if he didn't actually sanction the conduct, and Obama, by assertion of EP, now is attempting to bury this. Given the interactions that probably occurred between ATF, DOJ and agencies such as DEA, FBI and Dept of State to keep the op going, it is reasonably probable that Janet Napolitano and Hillary Clinton have a role, at best (for them) of tacit approval.

Obama's assertion of EP is to protect Holder, but not because they are buddies. Obama clearly will throw anyone he can afford to under a bus if he thinks it is the solution to a problem that person presents for him.

However, even Obama can't toss Holder, Napolitano, Clinton, the UN Small Arms Treaty, heads of FBI, DEA, NSC...the list goes on...under the bus and tell people "they did it, not me". EP is not a good idea to bury multiple felonies by "a few rogue agents" running a "botched sting operation". For all his hubris and indolent incompetence, I don't think Obama would do that, nor would he do it to save Holder, his buddy. Oh, and I really doubt Kevin O'Reilly wanted his current assignment in Iraq. Him calling Hillary and begging to go...nah.

If you can figure out what something isn't, you are starting to figure out what it is. Sometimes that is where you have to start, what something is NOT.

I believe this is what Obama is hoping he can bury long enough, that he and a number of his direct reports have fingerprints all over F+F. His prints might be faint, but the mass of people involved would be damning past redemption. No sentient of any persuasion could really admit voting to reelect him.
 
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FoxNews reports that Rep. Issa is predicting a bipartisan vote in favor of contempt. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...tisan-contempt-vote-against-holder-this-week/. Reacting to criticism the Oversight Committee had lost sight of the aim of the investigation, the death of Border Agent Brian Terry, Issa responded:
"We, in fact, are simply trying to get to the truth when we were told a lie," Issa said. "It's about the cover-up."

"Ultimately, Justice lied to the American people on February 4 (2011), and they didn't make it right for 10 months."
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-vote-against-holder-this-week/#ixzz1yllVYxOT

Those of us who have been following this for a long time realize the focus has shifted but this is the first time I can remember Rep. Issa publicly acknowledging this.
 
I don't think the focus has really shifted. It's a known fact that Brian Terry was killed. It's a known fact that he was killed by a firearm that the BATFE knowingly allowed to be sold to an ineligible purchaser and smuggled across the border into Mexico. But ...

What is NOT yet known is exactly who is responsible for the operation. Yeah, we know who some of the players were, but who actually ordered it, who actually gave it the official go-ahead, and who knew about it and failed to stop it who should have stopped it?

Those are valid questions that directly pertain to closing the books on what led to Brian Terry's death. Those questions have not been answered, in large part, because the DOJ has lied and then stonewalled.
 
MTT TL said:
Issa stated publicly today that he believes that the POTUS was not involved at all in the operation or cover up.
Believe what you want. If he has nothing to hide, why would Obama invoke executive privilege? Remember, Issa needs to get enough votes to slap the AG on the wrist. Consider that a statement saying he doesn't "believe" the President is involved may be a cover to help sway a few swing votes.
 
I've also learned that F&F comes across much differently if you're watching CNN or CBS (and other media outlets) versus Fox News.

I think you can listen to Fox News and think that the focus has shifted but if you get news about F&F from other news websites, you can't even tell what the focus is.

Nancy Pelosi is saying that the contempt vote is about the GOP supressing votes and it's the AG's job to uphold people's civil rights. By trumping up contempt charges - they're trying to cut him off at the knees do they can continue to strip people of their right to vote.

I know it sounds crazy - but if you listened to the latest CBS story on it - that's the focus.
 
Bill Maher had Rachel Maddow and Nick Gillespie on his show where Maher admitted he didn't know anything about F&F until this week. Talk about being out of touch.

Maddow and Gillespie locked horns on F&F because she is convinced that Wide Receiver and F&F were both Bush era programs and that the Obama administration merely continued the programs. She apparently knows nothing of the two year lapse between them. She is a glittering jewel of colossal ignorance on this subject and facts will not deter her.

Knowing the caliber of audience that Maher has it would be no wonder that people would believe the two programs were related based on Maddow's rantings.

VIDEO LINK

The panel on "This Week" was better on the facts and had a better balance of guests.

VIDEO LINK
 
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Congressman Trey Gowdy (R-S.C.) gave a passionate speech about why Holder should be charged with contempt and why F+F is such a huge scandal. You can see the video in the link below (recommended)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma72HQRMRdA

That Pelosi is trying to muddy the water and dilute support for Issa's work is par for the course. It's called Politics. I am surprised by her insipid "conspiracy theory" however. It would have evaporated in a flash if Holder had agreed to turn over the documents and Pelosi would look even sillier.

Congressman Gowdy did have some other comments about Pelosi's statement.
Among other things he called it mind-numbingly stupid. :D
 
And notice how Pelosi tried to deflect the case against Holder by stating he was being targeted because he is against those who want to have "voter suppression".

They are running for the tall grass.
 
MTT TL said:
^ Feel free to correct the article in Wikipedia
You can't. At least not on certain topics considered political. A super editor goes back in and reinvents history. They have re-invented their own 1984 over there.

I have to disagree. After an earlier discussion in this thread, I edited part of the "ATF gunwalking scandal" article on Wikipedia and my edits remain intact.

The truth about Wikipedia articles is that a lot of people make edits that are biased and lack adequate supporting documentation. Such edits are routinely replaced by other biased and poorly-supported edits in a nearly never-ending cycle. Edits that are unbiased and strongly supported are either left alone or quickly restored if someone tries to over-write them with junk.
 
Watched the committee contempt hearing on TV yesterday. Also watched Issa and his Democrat counterpart.

Burke, the federal prosecutor for AZ, lied to the family of Brian Terry about the source of guns found at the murder scene. Someone high in the DOJ repeated that lie to Issas committee: Maybe it was the DOJ spokesman. That lie was not corrected for many months. Issa wants to get to the source of that lie.

Burke is a long time anti-gunner and cohort of Rahm Emanuel. He was a co-architect of the AWB. Prior to being appointed federal prosecutor Burke had worked for Napolitano when she was US AG. He also worked for her in the office of the AZ governor and at Homeland Security.

There were actually three F&F guns found at the Brian Terry murder scene; one was an SKS that disappeared from the radar. Some sources say the FBI hid knowledge of that gun because it was run by one of their "national security assets" in the drug cartel/s.

BTW: That awful "liberal" CBS broke that story.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20108240-10391695.html

By Sharyl Attkisson Topics News ,Law and Order .
(Credit: CBS/AP) Updated 5:09 pm, Sept. 19, 2011 with comment from the Office of the Inspector General

WASHINGTON - CBS News has obtained secretly recorded conversations that raise questions as to whether some evidence is being withheld in the murder of a Border Patrol agent.


The tapes were recorded approximately mid-March 2011 by the primary gun dealer cooperating with ATF in its "Fast and Furious" operation: Andre Howard, owner of Lone Wolf Trading Company in Glendale, Arizona. He's talking with the lead case ATF case agent Hope MacAllister.

Political loyalty is everything, if the tables were turned; the current majority party in the house would be defending their AG.
 
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