ATF Project Gunrunner

^ Feel free to correct the article in Wikipedia

Jacob Weinstein and Lanny Breuer knew that Operation Wide Receiver was a failure.

So OK, lets say that the people who conceived Operation Wide Receiver were incompetent and stupid.

What does it say about BATFE and DOJ under the Obama administration that they took a tactic that was a proven failure and repeated it?

That's more than stupid, it inexplicable and reckless. They must have known that walking guns again wouldn't nab any cartel kingpins, their arms dealers or their mules. For building a case against the cartels - the operation was useless. But one thing a repeat of the operation could do is put a lot of guns into the hands of the cartels, guns that could be tracked back to U.S. gunshops. A repeat of Wide Receiver could be pivitol in swaying public opinion and be a lynchpin in the argument that America needed stricter gun laws.
 
Last edited:
jimpeel wrote in post 2311:

I'm still waiting for a congressperson -- ANY congressperson -- to tell Holder that he is the head of a department of the United States government which committed an act of war against a foreign sovereign state and ask him what he thinks of that and if he know the punishment for that crime.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unless you happen to look very good in blue, don't hold your breath waiting, and this observation, I submit, applies with equal force to congressmen/women from either side of the aisle.

Executive Privilege likely applies to the answer.
 
^ Feel free to correct the article in Wikipedia
Click to expand...

You can't. At least not on certain topics considered political. A super editor goes back in and reinvents history. They have re-invented their own 1984 over there.
 
When General Motors was in financial trouble, President Obama effectively FIRED the CEO, Rick Waggoner saying that the buck stops at the top. Since the DOJ has been a consummate failure in the operation known as Fast and Furious, shouldn't the buck stop at the top?
 
jimpeel:

Re your reference to Obama's 2007 comment to Larry King, have you forgotten the old saw about "it depends on whose ox is being gored".

Obviously, here and now It's Obama's Ox, spelled "good friend" ergo things change.

That typo should not have gotten past me, sorry.
 
Last edited:
mooney1el:

I guess it depends on whose friend or friends sit where. Here, it's a good friend of Obama's who is the "CEO", and I personally very much doubt that Obama will fire him, though he might be persuaded to, having discovered "urgent family matters/concerns" resign. "He" being the AG, in case anyone was wondering.
 
Last edited:
Since the DOJ has been a consummate failure in the operation known as Fast and Furious, shouldn't the buck stop at the top?
Click to expand...
That's the problem. Had the administration acted earlier, they could have staved off the blowback. Now they own it.

I'm going to sound like a real jerk here, but if I were President, here's how I'd have handled it.

February 2011: I'd have called Holder in. I'd have asked what the heck was going on in the Phoenix field division and if the allegations had any truth. If they did, I'd have told him to fire Chait, Voth, and Newell and throw them to the wolves.

(Don't worry, they'd all get pardons in January once the whole thing blew over)

Having established scapegoats, I'd have given a speech about "isolated rogue elements," highlighting what a Man of Action I am and how I'd make it a personal mission to uproot such corruption and incompetence in the future. Then I'd have called Dennis Burke and made darn sure any incriminating documents were destroyed.


If the above sounds cynical, well, that's politics. But this administration couldn't even get that right, and their backpedaling and procrastination have led to to a worse result.
 
Tom Servo:

I'm getting sloppy, apologies.

My brief comment should have referenced your"worse result". In any event, what we now have is the "worse result" you mentioned.
 
Rahm Emanual is looking like a prophet now.

He hated Eric Holder and he and Axelrod always thought Holder was a danger to Barack winning a second term. Holder views (viewed ?) himself as an activist AG. Some of Holder's comments about closing Guantanimo, insisting Khalid Sheikh Mohammed be tried in civilian court... Rahm the politician saw these as risky to Barack.

I've heard that Holder and Obama are friends and their wives are close friends but I can't beleive the president would precipitate an EP showdown over being BFFs.

I don't think jetisoning Eric Holder would damage his presidency so much that he'd definately lose the election, although I think he'll lose anyway. Hitting the eject button on Holder now won't make F&F go away - like someone said - the fact that Americans got killed because of this nonsense - it's going to hang around and smell like dead fish.

IMO there probably is something in those documents that would sink his reelection bid.

I wish I could hear the conversations between Rahm and Barack now...
 
I do not discount the loss of American LEO life in the least.It is tragic.

What I believe is being under emphasized....in many ways,is the loss of life on the border and in Mexico.

I wonder how many decent ,law abiding citizens who fell in the disfavor of the drug cartels have been killed by the 2000 lost weapons.

It is under reported by our press,but as much violence goes on there as occurs in Iraq or Afghanistan.

If you look in the right places,on the internet you can find images of piles of bodies,rows of decapitated heads,etc.

Remember,many of us believe the point of F+F was to create outrage over murder,violence,terror in Mexico from guns sold by USA gun dealers irresponsibly or unlawfully.This outrage would justify change.

Lets not forget,lets empasize,these gun dealers WERE responsible,and DID their duty to report to the BATF that a suspicious transaction was in the works.The BATF told the dealers to make the sales.

The same Mexican citizens are dead.The same violence and terror has taken place.Lets not allow this to only be about the two American LEOs.

The outrage,the blood,the suffering that F+F was to smear on the USA gun dealers DID OCCUR.

The accountability for those murders,kidnappings,etc must not be ignored.This issue needs to be relentlessly pursued,and whoever is accountable needs to also be held accountable for the violence in Mexico.

That is what they wanted to do with the gun dealers,and,it is right to do,just get the right people;Those responsible for F+F.

For all the political rhetoric that is spoken about immigration and humanitarian regard for the people of Mexico,

it cannot be ignored the intent of the 2000 lost weapons was to create massive death and terror,international outrage,in Mexico.

The lie,the cold,cynical disregard for the suffering in Mexico,this calculated "collateral damage" for an "ends justify the means" political strategy must be clearly identified,and regardless of which admistrations or who can be accountable,they need to be recognized ,and perhaps they owe a criminal debt to the people of Mexico.
 
Last edited:
Holder and Obama are of one mind regarding how to deal with 2A rights. There's little doubt in my mind that this would blow back onto the Oval Office in a detrimental way, though I wouldn't venture to guess tht the president was aware of the program from the biginning.

The big question is whether throwing Holder under the bus now would be enough to derail the process, and whether Holder is a stand-up guy like Gordon Liddy, willing to take the fall and the blame to save his buddy the POTUS.

Holder knows he's got seven months or so to catch a presidential pardon, but of course he can't be pardoned until he's charged with something. The timing is really messed up for poor Mr Obama. It will be interesting to watch this play out.
 
I wonder how many decent ,law abiding citizens who fell in the disfavor of the drug cartels have been killed by the 2000 lost weapons.
Click to expand...

The drug cartels can get all the full auto weapons they want.

The idea they would be all that interested in US semi-auto guns is (at best) a joke.
 
So,brickeye,are you suggesting that none of the 2000 weapons have been used by the cartels or anyone else to cause death and terror among Mexican nationals?

I do not understand your point.

Are they not just as dead from a semi-auto? Or do the cartels turn their nose up at the semi-autos and chop saw them?Or do they give them to the Nuevo Laredo Neighborhood Watch program?

What,then,is the story behind agent Terry's death?Wasn't it a F+F gun?

My point is that the lives of the people in Mexico count,too,not just agent Terry.

And those behind the F+F program are responsible for the blood in Mexico,also.

And the blood in Mexico is the same color as the blood in USA,and the people shed the same tears.

IMO,I cannot find anything but cold,cynical lies in someone who,on one day,can send AK-47's into another country to create outrage through death,then the next day can offer immigration reform as a humanitarian gesture.

Choose your friends wisely
 
Last edited:
Having established scapegoats, I'd have given a speech about "isolated rogue elements," highlighting what a Man of Action I am and how I'd make it a personal mission to uproot such corruption and incompetence in the future. Then I'd have called Dennis Burke and made darn sure any incriminating documents were destroyed.
Click to expand...

That works in 1982, not so well 30 years later. The problem is in today's day and age you can never be certain that all the documents are destroyed. Especially if the people involved were doing something shady. Someone is going to keep a copy of something telling them to do something that is questionable to prevent them from being thrown under the bus just as you described.

So now we have these cat and mouse games instead.

If Obama kept Holder for personal reasons than that might sink the whole boat.
 
I wonder how many decent ,law abiding citizens who fell in the disfavor of the drug cartels have been killed by the 2000 lost weapons.
Click to expand...

The Mexican elite politicos don't much care either...

Instead of demanding extradition so the perpatrators can face justice Mexican President Calderon instead cow tows to the Obama administration and calls for assault weapon ban in US instead.

How many decent ,law abiding citizens who fell in the disfavor of the drug cartels have been killed by the 2000 lost weapons?

I'm guessing roughly ¼ the number of Mexicans who have been killed by the weapons that dissapear out of Mexican arms rooms or come with deserters who defect from the National Army to the go on the payrolls of the cartels. Most of those weapons come from the Direct Purchase program. The U.S. gives money to Mexico, the Mexican Army spends it on purchasing U.S. Weapons, a good percentage of those weapons make it to the cartels.

I've only seen one or two reports on that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top