ATF Project Gunrunner

Haven't heard the possible CIA connection (the idea of arming the Sinoloas so they could fight the Zetas more effectively, indirectly assisting the Mexican government, was purportedly advocated by CIA reps back when this had all started) brought up in quite a while.

If there is any accuracy to that assertion, though, we now would have DOJ, CIA, and very likely State involved.

In which case, the ultimate target should not be Holder.
 
The actual operation fits the modus operandi of this administration from the start. Anything that could be done through regulation under a bureau or bureaus to fit the goals of the administration was done. The administration has been and was completely aware that further gun control laws at the federal level would face a lot of resistance without an outcry from the public to take action.

An similar example would be the regulations in the energy industry (newly employed by bureaus) that have cause segments of the coal industry to go under.. No new laws had to be created by the congress.

Although this operation was not specifically through regulation, it was the use of a bureau to achieve a goal.

I believe this operation was completely to create that outcry for action against guns. Nor do I believe for one moment that the administration was attempting to arm one cartel to fight another.. Cartels have plenty of guns and plenty of less risky way to get them than to enter the US with our multiple levels of law enforcement and surveillance.

I think these things are done to achieve an ideological ends witout a lot of thinking about the overall consequences as the ends justifies the means to this administration.. (IMHO)
 
Last edited:
in have no doubt Operation Fast and Furious was approved by Holder and Obama. BTW: Phoenix SAC Newell had a friend in the white house: NSC Director of North American Affairs Kevin O'Reilly. To my knowledge O'Reilly has never been questioned by Issa or Grassley.
 
Talk about the facts of the case, please. Discussing political blather on the tube or radio is heading for a shut down and we don't want to do that.

I am deleting discussion of some of the blazing intellects of the media.
 
The following, which has now and then been mentioned by other posters is that under administrations both Democratic as well as Republican, with congresses including majorities both Democratic as well as Republican, none of the above mentioned have ever acted to really check the antics of the "ATF".
 
Thallub said:
To my knowledge O'Reilly has never been questioned by Issa or Grassley.
Click to expand...

O"Reilly got a suprise "promotion" to being the man on the ground in Iraq for International Drug Control or some such thing (it is buried in the back pages of this thread somewhere) shortly before he was called to testify about his knowledge of Fast and Furious. After being subpoena'ed Congress was told he was in Iraq and unavailable. Congress attempted to take testimony over the phone and that was shut down as well. To the best of my knowledge, O'Reilly is among the subpoenaed witnesses who have still not testified.

According to this recent story (http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-s-media-hit-man-linked-to-fast-and-furious) O'Reilly has remained "out of reach."
 
O"Reilly got a suprise "promotion" to being the man on the ground in Iraq for International Drug Control or some such thing (it is buried in the back pages of this thread somewhere) shortly before he was called to testify about his knowledge of Fast and Furious. After being subpoena'ed Congress was told he was in Iraq and unavailable.
Click to expand...

Got a good belly laugh out of that. Generals can brief the Pentagon every day and Diplomats can brief State by secure live video feed but somehow the congress can't get a witness.

:rolleyes:

Good to know that you can still get packed off to Iraq when you become a liability. ;)
 
Border Patrol group calls for Holder’s resignation

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/18/border-patrol-group-calls-holders-resignation/

The National Border Patrol Council, which represents all 17,000 of the agency’s non-supervisory agents, called for the resignation Monday of Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. for his role in the botched “Fast and Furious” gunrunning operation that resulted in the death of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

“It is time for Attorney General Holder to show the least shred of responsibility and leadership and resign his post,” Mr. McCubbin said. “Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry deserves nothing less."

“Americans deserve an attorney general who will be honest with them,” he said.
Click to expand...

I wonder why they don't mention Janet Napolitano at all.
 
Re this entire rotten business, the following comes to mind.

1. Obama is full of it.
2. Ditto Holder.
3. Ditto the "ATF"
4. Ditto the "news media", with very few exceptions.
5. Lest I forget, Ditto the Democratic Republican leadership.

Have I overlooked any salient factors?
 
From #2239...

And we should believe Agent Dobyns ... why?

Sacrificial lamb. Judas goat. The loyal underling falling on his sword to protect his superiors (who have probably promised to "take care" of him afterwards).

Unfortunately, I've been too close to too many Federal investigations to have any faith in what someone like Agent Dobyns says when the logic of the situation clearly indicates that his fairy tale makes no sense whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Jay Dobyns is hardly an ATF "yes man" or "whippin' boy"... To be quite honest, I was SHOCKED to learn he was still an agent after the scathing remarks he made in regards to their handling of the end of their Hells Angels infiltration...

He is quick to come forward with opinion based in truth as far as I can see of him...

Brent
 
You can go back a year before this story broke and find instances where Holder, Panetta, Mexico's President and others were blaming the border state gun shops for providing a channel for cartels to get guns and ammo. This was clearly a setup to undermined the second amendment. If they had not done such a poor job we would be seeing these same gun store owners on trial right now.
 
Interesting Development

Sipsey Street Irregulars is reporting that Agent Jaime Zapata (the ICE Agent murdered in Mexico) had filled out a Report of Investigation dated August 2010 in which he indicated he was investigating the smuggling of weapons from Phoenix, AZ and San Antonio, TX. He described 80 weapons seized in interdiction (50 of which belonged to Fast & Furious).

Source: http://www.examiner.com/article/blo...d-ice-agent-was-investigating-fast-and-furiou

On February 15, 2011, a few months after the Fast & Furious story broke and about a month after the first inquiry from Congress, Jaime Zapata was murdered at a fake roadblock ambush. At least one of the weapons recovered at the scene was traced to an El Paso firearms trafficking ring that ATF had been watching for at least six months prior to the shooting (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_...ly-wants-answers/?tag=contentMain;contentBody)

However, one reason this is bigger news is that when Janet Napolitano was questioned by Congress about DHS's role in Fast and Furious and whether the Zapata murder was linked to this, she testified "“I have no information to that effect, no. I don’t know one way or the other."

If the Agent who had been murdered had filled out a Report of Investigation that dealt with 50 recovered Fast and Furious weapons, that would seem to be the type of link that Congress might expect to be informed of. Apparently this particular piece of paperwork came to Congress through whatever network of insiders is helping expose the higher ups in DOJ and DHS.
 
A second Fast and Furious gun was linked to the Jaime Zapata murder: Peddled by a second gun runner being watched by the BATFE. The family of Zapata was not informed that Manuel Barba was prosecuted.


http://scottystarnes.wordpress.com/...ed-to-ice-agent-jaime-zapata-murder-turns-up/

Prosecutors recently sentenced a Texas man, Manuel Barba, for trafficking a weapon connected to the murder of Immigration and Customs (ICE) Agent Jaime Zapata. Nobody was more astonished to learn of the case than Zapata's parents, who didn't know that Barba had been arrested or linked to their son's murder.

...........................................................................................................


Documents indicate ATF opened its case against Barba, entitled "Baytown Crew," in June of 2010. During the investigation, court records state Barba recruited straw purchasers and "facilitated the purchase and exportation of at least 44 firearms" including assault rifles. On August 20, 2010 Barba took delivery of the WASR-10 semi-automatic rifle later used in Zapata's murder, obliterated its serial number, and sent it to Mexico with nine others just like it. Nearly two months later, on Oct. 8, 2010, ATF agents recorded a phone call in which Barba "spoke about the final disposition of ... firearms to Mexico and also about the obliterating of the serial numbers before they were trafficked." Barba told straw purchasers the guns were destined for the Zeta drug cartel.

A warrant wasn't issued for Barba's arrest until four months later; coincidentally, the day before a rifle he trafficked was used against Zapata.

Barba is now the second weapons trafficker who had been under ATF surveillance to be linked to Zapata's murder. As CBS News previously reported, ATF had also been watching suspect Otilio Osorio during the time he trafficked a different weapon used in Zapata's assault. Records show ATF watched on Nov. 9, 2010 as Osorio, his brother Ranferi and Kelvin Leon Morrison transferred a cache of illegal weapons to a confidential informant but failed to arrest the men at the time.

The government has kept a close hold on nearly all information surrounding Zapata's murder, denying the family's Freedom of Information requests on the basis of an ongoing investigation. The Zapata's attorney says they will keep pursuing the information by "whatever means necessary."
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Janet Napolitano testimony before House Homeland Security commitee

http://www.c-span.org/Events/Secretary-Napolitano-Explains-DHS-Funding-Request/10737428328-1/

At 39 minutes Michael McCaul brings up the Jaime Zapata murder.

Rep Patrick Meehan brings up F&F again at 1:14 and trys to get at the existence of reports.

Ed Hammel was the ICE agent assigned to F&F. There were some rumors, that Ed raised objections to gun walsking and he was replaced by Layne France.

I think there must be some records on Ed's work. He must have filed reports I would think. I find it hard to beleive that those reports never went to Janet Napolitano.

She did have the information. Napolitano's only defense would be the Holder defense "I didn't read the memo."
 
Last edited:
My bet is (While the meeting is supposed to be underway) there will be few if any documents and the ones selected will not reveal anything we dont already know about... The good old washington two step, round and round we go...

Mr. Holder might as well plead the 5th due to his potential criminal conduct and take the contempt and move on.. I dont think Mr. Holder will fold, contempt or not, he seems to feel superior and its about ideals with him (IMHO) not laws and certainly not about the constitution..

And as a After meeting Edit - yes I was right he turned over absolutely nothing.... Dont know how this problem gets solved but obviously for this level of stonewalling something bad must be in the documents requested.. Might be anything from mild inappropriate conduct to who knows....
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top