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ATF Project Gunrunner
- Thread starter Al Norris
- Start date
Worst case scenario, a deal is made and the investigation fades away. That does not mean the investigation and work of the committee will not have accomplished anything. It put a brake on a runaway train. Even if the train is not dismantled, it has slowed somewhat in the glare of public scrutiny. Perhaps more will result.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77303.html
Bottom line - says the GOP leadership don't want to pursue this despite strong rhetoric.
Thinks it is a distraction from the economy stupid attack for 2012.
Bottom line - says the GOP leadership don't want to pursue this despite strong rhetoric.
Thinks it is a distraction from the economy stupid attack for 2012.
“This isn’t the message leadership wants,” one veteran House Republican lawmaker said. “They just want a boring, quiet summer of us not saying anything to screw up [and] get in the way of Obama’s economic news.”
A House GOP aide added, “Not a fight we are looking for. It doesn’t look good for anybody.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77303.html#ixzz1xaohRub2
I am not so sure everyone got the memo.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...r-special-prosecutor-to-senate/#ixzz1xbWZ0F9k
Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, made the call for Holder's resignation during a Senate hearing late Tuesday morning. It came in the context of GOP concerns about Holder's decision to appoint two lawyers from within his department to handle the politically sensitive leak probe -- as well as concerns about Fast and Furious.
"I would say that you leave me no alternative but to join those that call upon you to resign your office," Cornyn said. "Americans deserve an attorney general that will be honest with them, they deserve an attorney general who will uphold the basic standards of political independence and accountability. You've proven time and time again, sadly, that you're unwilling to do so."
Holder in response accused Republicans of playing politics, and specifically accused Cornyn of "breathtaking" inaccuracies.
"I don't have any intention of resigning," he said.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...r-special-prosecutor-to-senate/#ixzz1xbWZ0F9k
It seems to me Mr. Holder feels he is in a political position of superior power... I have watched a fair part of two hearings now and although he is well spoken he seems to say little of any real importance, he just plain doesn’t give details period..
I don’t know the guy but to me it doesn’t seem to be so much smugness as he simply seems to feel he has no reason to answer the questions with any detail at all.. He appears to be totally disinterested in anything more than surface deep and flowery speech.
Having seen the recent proceedings I don’t even think contempt of congress would get him to open up... he seems to feel untouchable and above the law.. And I guess to this point he has been and is... this is the mindset that IMHO doesn’t care about the constitution or correctness and is all about whatever craziness he personally believes, not a good thing to be sure..
In fact after posting this I have thought about this further and it seems his claims of some sort of potential constitutional crisis is kind of disturbing in that he is not an elected anything, he is not the president... I believe he is at least in part refering to the separation of powers of the three branches but I see no constitutional basis for his offices so I dont see any constitutional protection granted to them other than his office belongs to the executive branch. I am not a lawyer so I leave that to those who are but it seems to me that he might not be as "protected" by belonging to the executive branch as he thinks...
It is also interesting that Mr. Obama hasnt simply ordered Mr. Holder to release these documents nor does anyone seem to be pressing Mr. Obama to do so.
I don’t know the guy but to me it doesn’t seem to be so much smugness as he simply seems to feel he has no reason to answer the questions with any detail at all.. He appears to be totally disinterested in anything more than surface deep and flowery speech.
Having seen the recent proceedings I don’t even think contempt of congress would get him to open up... he seems to feel untouchable and above the law.. And I guess to this point he has been and is... this is the mindset that IMHO doesn’t care about the constitution or correctness and is all about whatever craziness he personally believes, not a good thing to be sure..
In fact after posting this I have thought about this further and it seems his claims of some sort of potential constitutional crisis is kind of disturbing in that he is not an elected anything, he is not the president... I believe he is at least in part refering to the separation of powers of the three branches but I see no constitutional basis for his offices so I dont see any constitutional protection granted to them other than his office belongs to the executive branch. I am not a lawyer so I leave that to those who are but it seems to me that he might not be as "protected" by belonging to the executive branch as he thinks...
It is also interesting that Mr. Obama hasnt simply ordered Mr. Holder to release these documents nor does anyone seem to be pressing Mr. Obama to do so.
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Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Cornyn is waving his arms in the air, saying look at me. As the link I posted said - folks will do this. However, no real action will be taken.
Easy to wave your arms in the air.
Easy to wave your arms in the air.
Get your Fast and Furious information right here:
http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fastandfurious/investigation.html
http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fastandfurious/investigation.html
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Woo hoo! After 18 months of controversy, and the 8th time Eric Holder has testified before Congress on Fast and Furious, NBC News actually MENTIONED it for the first time last night.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journa...peration-Fast-and-Furious-for-First-Time-Ever
Apparently Senator Cornyn directly confronting Holder and calling for his resignation finally made the story newsworthy over there.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journa...peration-Fast-and-Furious-for-First-Time-Ever
Apparently Senator Cornyn directly confronting Holder and calling for his resignation finally made the story newsworthy over there.
In the past 30 years numerous political appointees have been cited for contempt by congressional committees and sub-committees. In the vast majority of cases the congressional body never voted on the contempt charge.
Being found in contempt of congress is a misdemeanor that can be appealed in federal court. In 1983 Rita Lavelle was found in contempt of congress. She appealed and her contempt charge was overturned in federal court. Lavelle was later found guilty of lying to congress.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19693051/ns/politics/t/what-contempt-congress/
Being found in contempt of congress is a misdemeanor that can be appealed in federal court. In 1983 Rita Lavelle was found in contempt of congress. She appealed and her contempt charge was overturned in federal court. Lavelle was later found guilty of lying to congress.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19693051/ns/politics/t/what-contempt-congress/
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Let's see if they do it - like I said - arm waving threats don't count.
That's posturing for the base.
That's posturing for the base.
No, but as Bart pointed out, it attracted media attention. Of course, it was all over Fox, but there was also a blurb about it on my local evening news, which is the first I've seen.like I said - arm waving threats don't count.
Regarding contempt, I still don't know if the charge will stick. Yes, Issa claims to have the votes, but I wonder how many of those folks will drift away under political pressure. Before the final vote, we can be sure that somebody's going to ask the Representatives if they really want to send the Sargeant-at-Arms to physically arrest the Attorney General. I can see more than a few relenting.
Before the final vote, we can be sure that somebody's going to ask the Representatives if they really want to send the Sargeant-at-Arms to physically arrest the Attorney General.
Sarge should arrest him on live television and make it a pay-per-view event. I'd pay to watch it.
This is exactly what will happen. The "trove" will have little actual treasure in it and much of it will consist of more blank pages. Still, it will take time to wade through it, enough to stall what momentum there is.Many Republican aides expect Justice will dump a trove of documents on Issa’s lap prior to June 20. That would most likely slow the vote — the committee would need to review the paperwork.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77303_Page2.html#ixzz1xiUjuWJV
Fishing_Cabin
New member
For those that may have missed this. Today Holder said he will meet with Issa and agrees to give internal emails, and some other info....
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-defense-as-republicans-pursue-contempt-vote/
Seems like Issa may get the info he wants from Holder. Now we will see what the next move may be in this chess game.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-defense-as-republicans-pursue-contempt-vote/
Seems like Issa may get the info he wants from Holder. Now we will see what the next move may be in this chess game.
The rumer is that Holder has blinked (see the Fox News story, above) because of what Mike Vanderboegh and David Codrea have discovered: http://www.examiner.com/article/blo...-changer-doj-whistleblowers-have-come-forward
They are not showing all their cards.
I know if they can bring down the AG on the eve of the serious electoral season they will do it. Doing the right thing for all the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing. I think they would be pushing harder though if they had a smoking gun. Unless they are just stalling.
I know if they can bring down the AG on the eve of the serious electoral season they will do it. Doing the right thing for all the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing. I think they would be pushing harder though if they had a smoking gun. Unless they are just stalling.
BGutzman in post #2205 closed with the following:
It is also interesting that Mr. Obama hasnt simply ordered Mr. Holder to release these documents nor does anyone seem to be pressing Mr. Obama to do so.
__________________
I could be wrong, but I suspect that President Obamas hasn't "ordered" Holder to release the documents in quesstion for 2 reasons:
1. He might be worried concerning exactly what these documents might show, as with who knew what and when, as well as who is actually responsible for what.
2. The second possibility is the following. Holder, as others have noted, feels he is above the law. That being the cxaase, he migfht tell the president to, as is sometimes mentioned in Westrern Pennsylvania, to "Go Pound Salt", a comment that would certainly prove interesting.
It is also interesting that Mr. Obama hasnt simply ordered Mr. Holder to release these documents nor does anyone seem to be pressing Mr. Obama to do so.
__________________
I could be wrong, but I suspect that President Obamas hasn't "ordered" Holder to release the documents in quesstion for 2 reasons:
1. He might be worried concerning exactly what these documents might show, as with who knew what and when, as well as who is actually responsible for what.
2. The second possibility is the following. Holder, as others have noted, feels he is above the law. That being the cxaase, he migfht tell the president to, as is sometimes mentioned in Westrern Pennsylvania, to "Go Pound Salt", a comment that would certainly prove interesting.
KyJim wrote:
Worst case scenario, a deal is made and the investigation fades away. That does not mean the investigation and work of the committee will not have accomplished anything. It put a brake on a runaway train. Even if the train is not dismantled, it has slowed somewhat in the glare of public scrutiny. Perhaps more will result.
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I suspect that he fortells pretty much what the ending will likely be, except that I question whether the "train" will actually be slowed. I most definately expect/suspect that "a deal will be made", for both the Republican as well as the Democratic leadership is busy playing CYA, and devil take the hindmost, which just happens to be The Public Interest, and the constitutional rights of the people.
While it might be, forget might be, it is sad, that the story ends here.
Worst case scenario, a deal is made and the investigation fades away. That does not mean the investigation and work of the committee will not have accomplished anything. It put a brake on a runaway train. Even if the train is not dismantled, it has slowed somewhat in the glare of public scrutiny. Perhaps more will result.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suspect that he fortells pretty much what the ending will likely be, except that I question whether the "train" will actually be slowed. I most definately expect/suspect that "a deal will be made", for both the Republican as well as the Democratic leadership is busy playing CYA, and devil take the hindmost, which just happens to be The Public Interest, and the constitutional rights of the people.
While it might be, forget might be, it is sad, that the story ends here.