Luger_carbine
New member
Fox News pundits have started calling him Eric Witholder. 
ATF Project Gunrunner
- Thread starter Al Norris
- Start date
The U.S. Attorney's Office, and possibly the investigating agency, appear to be in violation of federal law requiring notification to victims of significant court proceedings and to be heard at sentencing. The USDOJ has a brochure about it here: https://www.notify.usdoj.gov/USAOVictimRights.pdf. Where the victim is deceased, the term "victim" includes a spouse, parent, or certain other persons set out in 42 U.S.C. 10607(e)(2) available at http://openjurist.org/title-42/us-code/section-10607/services-to-victims.
The 17,000 member National Border Patrol Council is calling for Holder's resignation.
Good interview with George McCubbin III on Cam and Company.
VIDEO LINK
Good interview with George McCubbin III on Cam and Company.
VIDEO LINK
Micahweeks
New member
Well... kinda fits.
Luger_carbine
New member
That is a good interview with George McCubbin III.
Does anyone know if they poll their membership or if the members vote on something like this, or is it just a decision that the National Border Patrol Council leadership makes?
Does anyone know if they poll their membership or if the members vote on something like this, or is it just a decision that the National Border Patrol Council leadership makes?
Obama invokes executive privilege over DOJ documents
and
Obama Grants Holder Request for Executive Privilege on 'Fast and Furious' Documents
This should get VERY interesting.
and
Obama Grants Holder Request for Executive Privilege on 'Fast and Furious' Documents
This should get VERY interesting.
Obama just gave Holder Executive Privilege on this...The Obama administration must really be dirty on this whole F&F thing, I would have guessed Obama throws Holder under the bus long ago but I guess the expanse of this whole F&F thing must be much deeper into his Administration than Holder.
I really hope that politicians in Washington have the fortitude to call Obama out on this, to demand answers in a case where Americans have died because of numerous government screw ups.
I really hope that politicians in Washington have the fortitude to call Obama out on this, to demand answers in a case where Americans have died because of numerous government screw ups.
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Luger_carbine
New member
I am trying to make sense out of this decision.
Up till now there has not been enough concrete evidence to tie the president directly to F&F.
By exerting executive privledge, President Obama has tied himself directly to F&F.
It only makes sense if the documents contain evidence that is so damaging to Holder that it forces his ouster AND having his AG resign damages the president to the extent that it ruins his re-election chances
or
The documents contain evidence that tie the president directly to F&F and either are grounds for impeachment or are so damaging that it ruins his re-election chances.
Axelrod is supposedly one of the most politically astute advisors in the country. It leads me to believe that the documents are extremely damaging to this administration.
I think this also tips the scales in the contempt proceedings. People who wanted to negotiate and head off a confrontation have just had the rug yanked out from under them. The adminstration has basically slapped the House of Representatives in the face. President Obama has thrown down the gauntlet.
I also think it changes some attitudes in the GOP. I think they smell blood in the water now, just my opinion.
Up till now there has not been enough concrete evidence to tie the president directly to F&F.
By exerting executive privledge, President Obama has tied himself directly to F&F.
It only makes sense if the documents contain evidence that is so damaging to Holder that it forces his ouster AND having his AG resign damages the president to the extent that it ruins his re-election chances
or
The documents contain evidence that tie the president directly to F&F and either are grounds for impeachment or are so damaging that it ruins his re-election chances.
Axelrod is supposedly one of the most politically astute advisors in the country. It leads me to believe that the documents are extremely damaging to this administration.
I think this also tips the scales in the contempt proceedings. People who wanted to negotiate and head off a confrontation have just had the rug yanked out from under them. The adminstration has basically slapped the House of Representatives in the face. President Obama has thrown down the gauntlet.
I also think it changes some attitudes in the GOP. I think they smell blood in the water now, just my opinion.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
As far as asserting Executive Privilege, it basically just means that there will be one more legal layer to dig through before the conflict can be resolved.
For all practical purposes, it will not be possible to resolve this issue before the November elections unless the parties suddenly come to an agreement after having failed to do so (or really even attempt it) several previous times.
At this point, I almost think the Democrats welcome the contempt vote. They are going to play it as politically motivated (as evidenced by comments from Rep. Elijah Cummings, Sen. Pat Leahy, and now the President) and hope that it distracts people from some of the other issues where they are doing poorly in public opinion.
Based on past examples, they can easily delay this past the November elections, so if they were the only source of the documents, then it makes sense to sit on them. The wildcard is that there is clearly one or more people who are handing over sensitive documents to the Oversight Committee. If those people hand over something earth-shattering (or have already done so), then this strategy could blow up in the Administration's face very quickly.
Barring something like that, I would guess you'll see a Oversight Committee vote that falls on party lines. After that, they will attempt to negotiate/stall again and you'll see a floor vote in the House with a few Democratic crossovers. After that vote, the House will recommend it to DOJ for prosecution. DOJ will investigate as long as they can and then decline prosecution. The House will file a civil contempt motion and the whole thing will go to court, where it will easily drag out past November.
For all practical purposes, it will not be possible to resolve this issue before the November elections unless the parties suddenly come to an agreement after having failed to do so (or really even attempt it) several previous times.
At this point, I almost think the Democrats welcome the contempt vote. They are going to play it as politically motivated (as evidenced by comments from Rep. Elijah Cummings, Sen. Pat Leahy, and now the President) and hope that it distracts people from some of the other issues where they are doing poorly in public opinion.
Based on past examples, they can easily delay this past the November elections, so if they were the only source of the documents, then it makes sense to sit on them. The wildcard is that there is clearly one or more people who are handing over sensitive documents to the Oversight Committee. If those people hand over something earth-shattering (or have already done so), then this strategy could blow up in the Administration's face very quickly.
Barring something like that, I would guess you'll see a Oversight Committee vote that falls on party lines. After that, they will attempt to negotiate/stall again and you'll see a floor vote in the House with a few Democratic crossovers. After that vote, the House will recommend it to DOJ for prosecution. DOJ will investigate as long as they can and then decline prosecution. The House will file a civil contempt motion and the whole thing will go to court, where it will easily drag out past November.
A couple of definitions:
Ordinarily I would say that while wecannot should not draw any conclusions about the documents or White House involvement in the scandal, the time to invoke such a privilege would have been at or near the start of this debacle.
Invoking the privilege at this late date does tend to link the White House to any supposed cover-up.
Ordinarily I would say that while we
Invoking the privilege at this late date does tend to link the White House to any supposed cover-up.
After which, it will be largely forgotten, which is no consolation to the victims and their families. That's the part that chaps me the most.
Not really, but it does seem to imply that the administration has something to lose by complying. At the very least, it comes across as cronyism.
Let's remember that the President was making denials about F&F in a Univision interview in February of 2011, while the Attorney General claimed not to have heard about it until April or so.
However, the documents being witheld involve internal discussions since then, and I wonder if the committe doesn't have enough evidence to go forward already.
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Obama now owns F&F. He has joined in the cover-up. The next step should be to impeach Holder and perhaps Napolitano and hope the trial in the Senate uncovers the dirt on Clinton and Obama, then impeach them in Round 2.
Practically, it mean Obama and Holder have won. Boehner will kill the whole investigation.
The alleged "rule of law" is now dead in this country because it officially does not apply to the rulers.
Luger_carbine
New member
I disagree.
Like brickeyee said
Unless the documents show that the president did indeed have knowledge of Fast and Furious.
I agree with zxcvbob: Obama now owns F&F.
He took ownership.
I think an arguement can be made a couple of ways.
If the president is re-elected this will dog him like a lodestone and may depending on the truth lead to eventual impeachment. It the president is not re-elected this will take some time to uncover but whatever happened will be uncovered more quickly and he may still face some charges. I suspect if he is not re-elected he will pardon himself and Holder before leaving office.
The one thing I think is certain is as long as the focus is on the agents death (which is where it should be along with who knew about this and when) this is going to be like dead fish.. You can only ignore it so long as its order fills the room..
If the president is re-elected this will dog him like a lodestone and may depending on the truth lead to eventual impeachment. It the president is not re-elected this will take some time to uncover but whatever happened will be uncovered more quickly and he may still face some charges. I suspect if he is not re-elected he will pardon himself and Holder before leaving office.
The one thing I think is certain is as long as the focus is on the agents death (which is where it should be along with who knew about this and when) this is going to be like dead fish.. You can only ignore it so long as its order fills the room..
Luger_carbine
New member
^ Agreed.
This isn't about a few attorneys being fired, it's about agents being killed.
In 2007 Barack Obama told CNN that Executive Priviledge was not a good reason to with hold information from Congress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bpwYh9TD6Nc
This isn't about a few attorneys being fired, it's about agents being killed.
In 2007 Barack Obama told CNN that Executive Priviledge was not a good reason to with hold information from Congress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bpwYh9TD6Nc
Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of innocent Mexican citizens were killed with guns the BATFE allowed into Mexico. Those folks lives should count for something too.
This F&F investigation by congress has dragged on much too long. Holder should have been found in contempt one year ago. Procrastination has allowed the opposition to turn the investigation into a racial issue.
This F&F investigation by congress has dragged on much too long. Holder should have been found in contempt one year ago. Procrastination has allowed the opposition to turn the investigation into a racial issue.